Episode 9: Dear Baby
March 7th, 2019
Hosted by Brian Birnbaum
Guests: Meher Manda & Chelsea Asher
Produced by Katie Rainey
Transcripts by Jonathan Kay
Episode 9 of the Animal Riot Podcast features two of our favorite writers and reading series co-hosts: Meher Manda is a poet and journalist from Mumbai with an MFA from The College of New Rochelle; Chelsea Asher is a writer of fiction with an MFA from Sarah Lawrence College, and the Editor-in-Chief of Lumina Journal. Both co-host the Angry Reading Series, which takes place at Grill on the Hill right here in NW Harlem. Together, the three of us talk writing, anger, and more, ending with a round of improvised poems addressed, "Dear baby..."
Episode 9 of the Animal Riot Podcast features two of our favorite writers and reading series co-hosts: Meher Manda is a poet and journalist from Mumbai with an MFA from The College of New Rochelle; Chelsea Asher is a writer of fiction with an MFA from Sarah Lawrence College, and the Editor-in-Chief of Lumina Journal. Both co-host the Angry Reading Series, which takes place at Grill on the Hill right here in NW Harlem. Together, the three of us talk writing, anger, and more, ending with a round of improvised poems addressed, "Dear baby..."
>> Brian: Welcome to the 9th episode of the Animal Riot Podcast brought to by Animal Riot Press, a literary press for books that matter. We're here today with Meher Manda and Chelsea Asher, two writers that run the Angry Reading Series here in New York, like 9 blocks from us. And we're going tomorrow. Yes
>> Chelsea: Woohoo
>> Brian: Yep. This hour's brand of fuckery is brought to you by orangecello from Sergio and Susanna De La fuckin Pava.
>> Meher: Thank you so much
>> Chelsea: Thank you. Mazel tov
>> Brian: Mazel tov. L'chaim
>> Meher: L'chaim
>> Chelsea: L'chaim
>> Brian: Shalom (laughter). Ok so, you guys introduce yourselves now and then tell me what you were going to say about me. Meher?
>> Meher: Hi, my name is Meher. I do some writing and I just wanted to thank you because I feel like podcasts are very onbrand for me as a person. I keep waking up every day and thinking why I don't have one and this is the first podcast that I have ever been invited on.
>> Brian: Hmmmm, wow
>> Meher: I'm so excited that this is where it will all begin
>> Brian: So I could be launching...
>> Meher: Me
>> Brian: ...a fledgling career
>> Chelsea: Yeah. We are witnessing something really special.
>> Brian: Yeah, I have my feet under my butt. I'm like a yogi master
>> Chelsea: Oh yeah? Me too. Although they are always there though (laughs)
>> Meher: I love how you said fledgling career. It's not even there. It's homeless at this point
>> Brian: (laughs) Homeless? Ok great. That's Meher (laughter)
>> Meher: I'm also a writer (laughs)
>> Brian: A poet. And a journalist
>> Meher: Oh yeah. That too (laughs). And a teacher.
>> Brian: Wow. Marge from Minneapolis. Thank you for that
>> Chelsea: So yeah, I am Chelsea Asher. I am a writer of largely things that make people uncomfortable and you can't really read anywhere yet. Mostly on my Google Docs unless you hack me. That's about it (laughs)
>> Brian: Like literally hack you?
>> Chelsea: Yeah, hack me. Please
>> Meher: Is this an invitation
>> Chelsea: Absolutely. I welcome it. My password is pretty easy actually. I have had the same one since I was 12.
>> Meher: ChelseaAsher12
>> Chelsea: Yeah, literally. Just Chelsea Asher backwards actually
>> Brian: Wait, on AIM?
>> Chelsea: Yeah (laughs)
>> Brian: Mine was griffey8383
>> Chelsea: Oh, my username was...
>> Brian: Oh that was your password, right. Mine was red1234
>> Chelsea: Oh yeah, me too (laughter)
>> Meher: Mine was cooler
>> Brian: That was it? It was 'cooler'
>> Meher: No, it was... (laughter) it was RollingStone
>> Brian: Wow
>> Chelsea: What? Without any numbers?
>> Meher: Yeah, _9600 or something like that
>> Chelsea: Oh don't like fucking try and act like you didn't have numbers on the end of that at (laughs)
>> Meher: Yeah
>> Brian: Ok yeah, anyways... so you were on AIM once, you had a password, and you write.
>> Chelsea: Yeah absolutely
>> Brian: I think that's it. I think we're done
>> Chelsea: (laughs) I'm also the editor-in-chief of Lumina Literary at Sarah Lawrence College. And I'm an educator here around the city
>> Brian: Are you a teaching artist still? Are you still doing the teaching artist circuit
>> Chelsea: Yes I am. I am still doing the teaching artist circuit
>> Brian: That's great.
>> Chelsea: Mhm. Working with 5th graders
>> Meher: It's a fun circuit
>> Brian: For Community Word Project?
>> Chelsea: Mhm
>> Brian: That's our lovely producer's organization
>> Chelsea: Absolutely. I also work in Astoria with a group of really awesome high school students writing narrative essays mostly about food and hip-hop at the moment. So that's pretty cool
>> Brian: Ohhh, that's cool
>> Meher: This is like a whole bio. I just said I'm a writer (laughter)
>> Brian: Well that's your fault (laughs). I mean, once you drop the AIM password it's like the floodgates have opened up
>> Chelsea: True. You can know everything you need to know in about 2 seconds. I mean my username was awful on AIM. Ok so, here's the thing. It was loveydoveygirl26.
>> Brian: Hmmm, that's pretty rough.
>> Chelsea: And the other thing about is that I thought of the whole thing with the numbers like the whole time
>> Meher: 26?
>> Chelsea: Yeah, I just thought it sounded really nice
>> Meher: Why 26?
>> Chelsea: I don't know. I felt like it was a whole persona. I was like, yeah this is the person I wanted to be. It was aspirational. Cause when you know when you used to go on AIM and wait for your crush to come online?
>> Brian: Yeah
>> Chelsea: That was the vibe
>> Meher: I wasn't on AIM. I don't know what that is
>> Brian: Was it just not in India?
>> Meher: I don't even know. I'm sure it was. I think I was just a late boomer... bloomer
>> Chelsea: (laughs) Late boomer
>> Meher: Which one is it?
>> Chelsea: I feel like boomer is more onbrand though
>> Meher: Late bloomer on the internet (laughs)
>> Brian: Like you didn't poop until you were 7 (laughs)
>> Chelsea: Yeah, absolutely (laughs)
>> Meher: I remember I was in like the 6th grade when they took us to the computer lab and they asked us to create our first email address. And I came up with - I felt like I needed two. One for Yahoo and one for gmail
>> Brian: Do you still have them?
>> Meher: Yeah, I still use them.
>> Brian: Wait, you had gmail when you first made an email address? It was gmail?
>> Meher: It was gmail and yahoo.co.in. And my Yahoo one was rollingstones and my gmail was snakeeyes185185.
>> Brian: (laughs) What were your passwords? I'm going in
>> Meher: I think one of them was the name of my apartment building and the other one I don't even remember. But I've had all of the passwords. Like my crushes as passwords...
>> Brian: Harshal is not one of them though? No...
>> Meher: Is Harshal my crush, is that the question
>> Brian: Nah, he's just your ball and chain
>> Chelsea: He's pretty crushable. Look at him vaping his cookies and cream (laughter)
>> Brian: We have a stranger on our couch who is just getting high as shit right now.
>> Chelsea: Staring at us with very sleepy eyes
>> Brian: Nah he looks kind of smug. I think he's going to kill us
>> Meher: But what a way to end your life, with a podcast. I think we are all blessed if we die on air
>> Brian: Did you just say to end it?
>> Meher: To end your life with a podcast
>> Chelsea: He's going to take the microphone and just like bash us over the head. (bang)
>> Brian: That was it. That was his first. He just dropped the hammer
>> Chelsea: Yeah that was actually the microphone hitting my skull (laughter)
>> Brian: So do you guys want to talk about your reading series at all?
>> Meher: Sure
>> Chelsea: We can
>> Brian: Just say whatever you want. You don't have to like... plug it. You can just say everyone is angry
>> Meher: We'll plug it. We'll plug that thing right in
>> Chelsea: Yeah. Why wouldn't we plug the thing that's happening every middle of the month at Grill on the Hill. Saturday night
>> Meher: 8 pm. The story we've told for the first 3 readings is the story that we will tell you all again
>> Chelsea: And then we stopped
>> Meher: It got boring because we said it so many times
>> Chelsea: But for one time only...
>> Meher: Yes, but for one night only this is a very interesting story. I, at one point, was a resident of Flushing in Queens which was a very happening and a very cultural experience for me because I would get stared at by Indian dudes on the bus and get followed on the streets. It was a lot of fun
>> Brian: Sounds like it
>> Meher: That wasn't like an attack because I'm Indian, by the way (laughter). Just to to make it clear
>> Brian: I think when you introduced yourself... or I did, as Meher Manda then it was pretty obvious (laughs)
>> Meher: Ok awesome. So this is me calling out my brethren. But I lived in Flushing and Chelsea came over for a night out for which we did things... fought with each others
>> Chelsea: Which shows how good our friendship is
>> Brian: Illicit things?
>> Chelsea: Yeah
>> Meher: We did illicitish things
>> Chelsea: I made falafel, let's be honest
>> Brian: Blackish?
>> Meher: Good show
>> Brian: Yeah, I actually have never seen an episode. This is the first ish that I could think of
>> Meher: I watched 5 and then stopped
>> Brian: The first syndicated ish. Very important
>> Chelsea: Ish-adjacent
>> Meher: Yeah. Ish-adjacent
>> Brian: Adjacentish?
>> Meher: And then I had been wanting to, because I read a few times, and I really wanted something cool and fun and I wanted to do it with someone and I thought we had a good night and we're friends and why shouldn't I ask Chelsea? And it was this idea of a reading series except I wanted to do something different and I wanted us to set ourselves apart. And then the next morning I, being the good friend... not the bad friend... I'm the good friend, the good guy, the good doctor, the good wife, the good place... (laughter) I'm the good place... and I was walking Chelsea to the train station...
>> Chelsea: That was basically what that was
>> Meher: That was basically my goodness
>> Brian: After a wonderful night together
>> Chelsea: Yeah one memorable night
>> Meher: In which Chelsea saw things
>> Chelsea: I did
>> Brian: On one wonderful night...
>> Chelsea: In a word where friends walk each other to the 7 Subway station...
>> Brian: The reading series arises...
>> Meher: From the streets... of Flushing of Main Street. (laughter) So yeah I told her "hey do you want to do a reading series?" And do you want to continue the story? As a true partnership, we will share the story
>> Brian: Ok hand the baton
>> Chelsea: So the other thing is that it was incredibly humid. I was very hungover so while Meher was telling me this idea, I like to add that it was a very bumpy walk to the train station for me.
>> Meher: We were both actually very fucked up
>> Brian: Like still drunk?
>> Meher: Were we still drunk or was this after drunk?
>> Chelsea: It was very hard to tell but the thing is I think what we both agreed on was in particular in our own writing something that we were both passionate about exploring was the themes of anger and how that manifests in a lot of different ways. It's also something, I think, just for both of us that we're generally just kind of like pissed off women so I think it was just one of those things that came about naturally as something that we could create a community that was just as pissed off as we were. But really, I think, the beautiful thing is that as it spiraled out once we started embarking on this journey to this community, that we created through this reading series, we found it's been just incredibly cathartic. Every reading is an amazing place where people share their own experiences and it falls together like a kaleidoscope. It's just incredible to meet so many great writers in the city
>> Brian: I have been to half at least?
>> Chelsea: You've been to two
>> Brian: So two thirds. This is a fledgling reading series
>> Chelsea: Yeah
>> Brian: But it's awesome
>> Meher: It's interesting because a lot of times... I mean I read a lot in the city and when someone asks me to send in submissions, I send in a poem that I want to test out or send my favorite poems to read and that selection comes to me very easily. But when we ask our readers to come read, they have to specifically pick pieces that have to deal with anger. Even if those pieces are not ready to be read, even if those pieces are way too vulnerable, or they're way too disjointed, and fragmented, there is an intention to what they are sending us. And very often that process becomes very interesting because you see a variety of poetry being read. There's a poem that has to do with some other kind of anger, something to do with despair, something to do with such prolonged sadness that there's no way for such grief to manifest but in anger in questioning. And I love that this process of selection gives us, from the same reader, very often very interesting and different pieces. Which I think is a lot of fun. I feel just by putting them through that mental gymnastics that we are establishing a certain sense of purpose and intention for the reader.
>> Chelsea: Yeah, absolutely. I feel it's a natural relationship starter. I know that's such a weird phrase but when you think about it when you're asking someone to give you or share a piece based around that kind of motion and that kind of experience in particular, I think it creates a connection with people. I think when we have a lot of the things that we share at the reading series, you're usually putting your first foot forward. Whereas naturally, with the feeling of anger anyway, I think it's a vulnerable motion because it manifests from places of fear, of questioning, of difficulty, of conflict within us or with the outside world around. And I think naturally that leads us to an environment where we have these beautiful relationships that we build with others. Because sometimes it's also about that framework of it creates such opportunity for humor and warmth. Like we've had writers share their poems of fomo while at the same night we'll have one sharing with them their own experiences working abroad, you know, volunteering with different folks across the world and the different disparities between communities. It's so funny because those things and the things that they have in common is that feeling of anger and those things that connect those different experiences, right?
>> Brian: I kind of feel right now... well I'm also a very angry person.
>> Chelsea: (laughs) Welcome to our tribe
>> Meher: Yeah, welcome to our tribe
>> Chelsea: Anger is like an inextricable part of any negative emotion that I have and I'm wondering if anyone else feels that too. It's an emotion that arises when I just feel very... like I can't... not just futility
>> Meher: There's no way around this
>> Brian: Yeah, not just futility. It's like any sort of friction and I'm just like a petulant child and I don't want to deal with it in a way. And all the way from that and actually feeling anger
>> Meher: As a woman growing up, especially because my mother is very conservative and very proper and she believes that there's a certain way that women should behave in public and I was always told to channel my anger. Which is very interesting because my father is very short-tempered and I sort of take after him in that way. But I was always asked to keep my anger in check. I was always asked to keep my voice in check. My volume. I was absolutely derided for talking back or questioning something. You have those parent-teacher meetings, right? When you're in school. And I would take my mother and they would say "oh Meher talks a lot and she gets very upset if you talk to her about something" and my mom would literally come back home and cry. And I said "you know I could do worse, like a B in my tests but that's not happened. I ranked 1st in my class but you're issue is the fact that I stand up for myself"
>> Chelsea: And you stand out
>> Meher: And I stand out. So for me, I understand that anger also becomes a channel for change because I think a lot of things that drove me away from the stereotypical environment that my family life was like, where if I am an atheist or a feminist, and I am very radically both. Both of those emotions came from anger. I think I felt angry at this at this godlike entity not because I had a very messed up childhood or that I was being punished in a way that nobody else was, but more in that ok this world is messed up, this doesn't make sense and I am really starting to question whoever the puppeteer is behind this is. It came out as a questioning of the intentions of this godlike person and overtime, of course, you read science and you acquaint yourself with Genesis in a scientific way then you realize that this is bullshit. But I think all of the things that made me radically political started with anger. And I think that it is that way, I like to believe, for everyone who is marginalized because all of this anger feels really pent up. Schools, society, families, and obviously human ethics that you're non-violent. I used to hit the wall with my knuckles to hurt my knuckles to vent out my anger and I once broke a switchboard in my home
>> Brian: When I didn't like how a video game was going, I used to bite my controller (laughter). You know, it could be whiter. But what you were saying was very interesting because what you were saying is very interesting because I think about this all of the time about how the paradox between anger being an agent of change was just absolutely true yet how it doesn't make us feel better. It's not good for us as people but it's necessary at the same time. It's a very tough line to walk because we want to be happy and we only have this life to live but if we're going to fight for something to change then we are not just doing it for ourselves because we are using our own time. I don't know, it's really tough for me because if we all want to work on our mental health and go to therapy and stuff, that's great but I know a lot of that involves more objectively looking at life existentially and not like in some of those political terms that involve change and stuff. So it's hard to reconcile that intellectually for me
>> Chelsea: Yeah, I definitely know what you mean. I think it's so interesting because for me, in particular, bouncing off of what we were just talking about, I think that anger is something that growing up I also sort of pushed into an introspective place. Like my mother on the other hand was like... I mean she's a firecracker...
>> Meher: It all starts with the mother (laughs)
>> Chelsea: We're all here with mother issues this episode. But no, with my mom she was running around the house, breaking every door by slamming it... like and it's not even like it was in a terrible way. It's just that my mother is very dramatic. We have a lot of Russian blood in our family. It kind of stems from that
>> Brian: Did she ever happily break a door? (laughs)
>> Chelsea: I mean merrily maybe. To be fair, my mom is the kind of person... ok so there was once a mosquito on the back door window when we were living in the UK, she literally went to swat at it on the window and she put her fist through the window like Hulk-style.
>> Brian: Was she a bird that didn't know the window was there? (laughs)
>> Chelsea: She just sort of thought that she was going to lightly swat at this mosquito and kill it and she just broke through the whole damn thing. My mom is a person who is a big fan of expressing herself
>> Brian: That definitely sounds like a... (loud laughter)
>> Chelsea: Maybe a little bit of that
>> Brian: Like an object permanence issue (laughs)
>> Chelsea: She was for sure doing the gorilla arms for a very long time before she got the glasses. You know, when you're trying to read something and you're holding it further and further away.
>> Meher: I wish your mom was my mom. I got a 2 hour talking to for breaking the switchboard
>> Brian: I think we all wish everyone else's mom was our mom
>> Chelsea: The thing is I can definitely understand that. Because a lot of people growing up were like "wow your mom is awesome" but I think growing up with that it definitely makes you feel some kind of way about certain reactions from people and I think for me in particular it was definitely a place of introspection. So whenever I felt angry, I think because I was never the loudest person in the room I often put it in a quieter place. Like I still today, when I get angry at something, I more usually react with crying
>> Brian: Or withdrawing
>> Chelsea: Yeah. It's a much more introspective, quiet place which I think is why it manifests itself in my own writing.
>> Brian: You should try biting your controller (laughs)
>> Chelsea: Yeah probably. I feel like also it manifests itself in weird, uncomfortable humor (laughs) which is probably it's own kind of thing
>> Brian: That's generally mature
>> Chelsea: Yeah, totally (laughter)
>> Meher: You know when you talk about biting your control, I keep thinking about Nadal winning something and then biting his cup.
>> Brian: Oh yeah
>> Meher: And when you said that anger is... you don't like feeling angry
>> Brian: For those of you who don't know, Nadal is a tennis player
>> Meher: Yeah, a brilliant one
>> Brian: He's my favorite tennis player
>> Meher: I'm not surprised to hear that. I would have guessed that
>> Brian: He lost to Djokovic in the last two finals and I'm pretty butt sore about it
>> Chelsea: Jock-a-vich, no?
>> Meher: I call him Joke-a-vich
>> Brian: Jock-a-vich, is that really it? Because in America we always call him the Joker
>> Chelsea: Maybe that's just a British thing because I'm imagining it like Joke-a-vich
>> Meher: Isn't he a Swede? Isn't he? Czech?
>> Chelsea: No, it's not a British name, for sure
>> Brian: You guys can keep talking, our producer is signing to me
Katie: British, ask her why
>> Brian: Why she's British?
>> Chelsea: Why am I British? Well, ask me
Katie: Say it again
>> Brian: Like when did you live in England?
Katie: Say it again
>> Brian: This is when Katie tries to say me to say something and I have to try to do it in an organic way
>> Meher: I will do this. When you tell me about Nadal, I'll say that then and then you will get into the whole riff
>> Brian: What's the riff?
>> Meher: It's when you said Nadal is...
>> Brian: Can you just ask her everything? Because this is when I go "SO CHELSEA. CHELSEA UNDER WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES DID YOU LIVE IN ENGLAND?"
>> Chelsea: Well thank you for asking (laughter). I lived there when I was 12
>> Brian: I'm biting my...
>> Chelsea: Yeah, we're biting our controllers
>> Meher: Let me tell you something about England. They colonized my country
>> Chelsea: Ok listen... (laughter)
>> Brian: But yeah that's the thing. You're not trying to combat that through your diction. You still say things like "I'm sitting here". Like what the fuck is that Meher? Are you trying to separate yourself?
>> Meher: Listen, the British took our most expensive diamond, and they starved us, and they took a lot from us, and reduced our GDP but they left us with their language ok? And you damn well know I'm going to exploit it. I'm going to exploit that damn language
>> Chelsea: Exploit it girl. Work it. Abuse it. Work that language (laughs)
>> Meher: Queen's English they say. Let's see which Queen
>> Brian: Meher, excuse me, I was listening to why she lived in England. That beautiful country that we all love so much (laughs)
>> Chelsea: Yeah, can we talk about England some more and not about this like very tiresome (laughs)...
>> Meher: England never won the World Cup. Ok? England never won the World Cup. Not soccer. Not cricket either
>> Brian: England has definitely won the World Cup
>> Meher: England has definitely never won the cricket World Cup
>> Brian: Oh cricket, but you said soccer
>> Chelsea: Nobody gives a fuck about the cricket
>> Meher: You know how many times India has won it?
>> Brian: A lot of times, that's great. I'm just saying... soccer... I thought you said soccer
>> Meher: Twice
>> Chelsea: Twice
>> Brian: Ok continue. I want to hear about Chelsea's white people issues (laughs)
>> Chelsea: Yeah, I want to talk about my white people issues (laughs)
>> Brian: Oh god. Something that this nice, Jewish boy can relate to (laughs)
>> Chelsea: Yeah, let's talk about that
>> Meher: I'm used to this
>> Chelsea: I mean my dad is British. My mom is from Queens. They met living in New York City when they were very young and they raised us in California but then we moved to England to take care of my grandma
>> Brian: And you're Jewish too, right?
>> Chelsea: And I'm super Jewish.
>> Brian: A British Jew. That's tough over there
>> Chelsea: Anti-semitism (laughs)
>> Brian: What did you guys say you wanted to talk about when we were texting? There was a show
>> Meher: Love Island
>> Brian: Love Island, let's get into this
>> Chelsea: That's actually a good segue. I'm from England
>> Brian: And you Jewish (laughs)
>> Chelsea: And I'm Jewish and we have some incredibly culturally rich media there.
>> Brian: The BBC?
>> Chelsea: No
>> Meher: The BBC is not
>> Chelsea: I mean the BBC is ok but I mean it's not
>> Brian: Hey, the Great British Baking Show came out on BBC or something like that. I don't know if that's true
>> Chelsea: Wait wasn't that on Channel 4?
>> Meher: It's now on Netflix
>> Brian: It is now. No, it's PBS. Our producers just signaled
>> Chelsea: Well but there's no PBS in the UK. You guys, you Americans
>> Brian: Goddamnit. Now our producers are shrugging. They're flabbergasted
>> Meher: It was on BBC. BBC is known for other things like the Big Fat Quiz and Graham Norton
>> Chelsea: So this is the thing, we are very culturally rich. But there's this incredibly beautiful soliloquy of a show called Love Island that I have introduced Meher to (laughs)
>> Meher: It has been dreadful but also very exciting
>> Chelsea: So let me explain the setup
>> Brian: Is it like The Bachelor?
>> Meher: No. You would think
>> Chelsea: When we started watching it Meher was like "oh it's basically like The Bachelor" and I was like "no it's not"
>> Brian: There was a Love Islandish show in America back when we were like...
>> Chelsea: Back in the day
>> Brian: Yeah, back in the day
>> Chelsea: It's based off of that original one but they brought it to England
>> Brian: Oh my God. This is the first time England has taken a show from America like ever
>> Chelsea: Yes and made it even better. Generally
>> Meher: Because it put in people from Essex
>> Chelsea: Ok so it's like 5-6 young hot singles and they take them from incredibly...
>> Brian: Wait, but are they angry?
>> Meher: They eventually do. There's a lot of anger
>> Chelsea: Yeah, inevitably because of the layout of the show.
>> Brian: Good. Then we are on topic (laughs)
>> Chelsea: The layout of the show is a little bit like The Lobster I feel like because it's in this nature of you have to be in a couple or you are voted off of the island. Which has this strange, dystopian vibe to it that I love
>> Brian: Yeah, it's all coming back to me now
>> Chelsea: But also it's just incredibly stupid because they just have people who are from Liverpool and Essex and stuff like that. I mean that was an awful Liverpool accent
>> Meher: And Welsh
>> Chelsea: Yeah and Welsh people who are basically from butt fuck nowhere.
>> Meher: She said it
>> Chelsea: Sorry
>> Brian: Yeah, that's kind of racist but whatever
>> Chelsea: (laughs) It's British
>> Meher: But you know, just to add onto that... Chelsea, who is from England and who knows culture, compared Yorgos Lanthimos' The Lobster to Love Island. There's your cultural critical analysis for the day (laughs)
>> Brian: I have no idea what that is
>> Meher: It's a great movie. You should watch it
>> Brian: I'll watch it. But my more pertinent question is do people fuck on the show like The Real World?
>> Meher: Yes, all of the time. Everybody sleeps in the same room.
>> Brian: What? That's like Birthright (laughs)
>> Meher: When you couple up with someone then you have to share a bed with them so you have all of these full-size beds in the room that all of them are sharing
>> Brian: That's it? Full size?
>> Meher: I'm guessing. It could be queen, I don't know
>> Chelsea: No, they are like European queens. Think Ikea-sized beds. They're small (laughs)
>> Meher: They're small. Which means they have to cuddle and snuggle a lot. And they usually fuck under the sheets... can we say fuck on the show?
>> Brian: Yeah
>> Chelsea: I have been saying it a lot so I guess (laughs)
>> Meher: And they fuck under the sheets and a lot of the time the others will be watching and they'll be rooting for them and it's just very...
>> Chelsea: Yeah, and they'll be like scoring them out of 10 standing on the sidelines
>> Brian: I don't understand
>> Meher: This show is responsible for giving me the greatest culture shock moment which I didn't think was possible. I didn't think anything could shock me. But this show did
>> Chelsea: I think whenever people think of British people they're always like "oh my God, they're so well-spoken even when they're talking about nothing"
>> Meher: Classy
>> Brian: But Europe is way less prudish than America
>> Chelsea: It's very true
>> Brian: If you watch The Great British Baking Show, speaking of that show, Noel will make random sex jokes and it's casual and it's a family show
>> Chelsea: Well he is just a damn creep
>> Meher: Noel Fielding is amazing, no he's not. I love him. He's so funny. I love him
>> Brian: He kind of thinks he's a rockstar but I like him
>> Meher: He did have a casual, traveling, musical comedy show and he filled out stadiums so maybe he is a rock star.
>> Brian: Oh, I didn't know that about him
>> Meher: He had his own comedy troupe called The Great... The Big... Something Baboosh. Something like that
>> Chelsea: The Mighty Boosh?
>> Meher: The Mighty Boosh. And there was music in it that filled the stadiums
>> Chelsea: Oh ok, The Mighty Boosh is like... there were a couple of good episodes. And people are going to fight my on this, like 100%
>> Meher: Like British people
>> Chelsea: But honestly it's overrated in my opinion
>> Brian: What's better Love Island or the Amused Boosh or whatever you just called it? (laughs)
>> Chelsea: Ok well I think... that's hard because on one hand Love Island isn't good either. But at least it's very self-aware about it's own terribleness
>> Brian: What? We just sprinkled praise on it for 10 minutes. You're just ruining my reputation
>> Meher: Speaking of ruining reputations, the first time I admitted to watching a really terrible show in public, to a broadcast audience...
>> Brian: Then let's just get it over with. What else do you watch that's terrible?
>> Meher: You know, other things
>> Chelsea: I can answer this incredibly easily
>> Brian: Come on, come on. Hell's Kitchen, Katie and I... I'm sorry, our producers and I watch Hells Kitchen
>> Meher: The other stuff I watch over and over again it's not terrible. Harschel can attest that I watch the Big Fat Quiz the same episodes 10 times
>> Brian: I have never seen that
>> Meher: It's the most hilarious... it's on Channel 4 and they get these really funny people and they quiz them about history and music
>> Brian: What's Channel 4?
>> Meher: It's a British channel that has shows
>> Brian: Oh ok, we're back to the British channels
>> Chelsea: These are all going to be British
>> Brian: Because she's still...
>> Meher: I'm still colonized...
>> Brian: She's still colonized, yeah
>> Chelsea: Yeah, it is. We're still doing it
>> Meher: ...intellectually and artistically. The British never left. Their seed is in me
>> Chelsea: (laughs) Oh my God
>> Brian: I'm disappointed in you Meher. I'm getting angry and I want to go on the series and...
>> Meher: Talk about all of the colonized Indian who can't seem to be rid of the British
>> Brian: Yeah
>> Meher: No, but that show is hilarious. Especially because the questions are straight jacket questions like "what did David Cameron say last year?" and "what was the biggest song from last year?". But I think the contestants are so funny. It's all of these really funny British comics: Noel Fielding, David Mitchell, Sarah McMillin, Richard Ayoade.
>> Brian: Has anyone in Parliament or the Prime Minister ever been on the show?
>> Meher: No... wait, as in on the questions?
>> Brian: No, no, no. You said they ask questions about them but they're not celebrities or anything like that?
>> Meher: But the contestants are well known British comics and you have Gina Peretti... not Gina Peretti, Chelsea Peretti. Gina is the name of the character. Chelsea Peretti was on the show
>> Brian: Trust me, no one is going to know here (laughs)
>> Meher: She's in Brooklyn 99. But anyway...
>> Brian: Oh ok. I've never seen the show but...
>> Meher: Yeah. And Michelle Wolf was in the recent one
>> Brian: Alright alright
>> Meher: So they have all of these comics and it becomes incredibly hilarious. And I've watched the same episode 15 times. And I watch a lot of other shows. But they're not terrible. I think it's a truly terrible show... I watch a lot of Indian reality shows where the kids are singing.
>> Brian: Oh that's really bad
>> Meher: Because it makes me... when I'm about to get my period.
>> Brian: Right now?
>> Meher: I already got it. But when I'm about to get it...
>> Brian: (laughs) Wait, I just need to interpolate. We're going to take a break in like 9 minutes so Meher can replace her lady goods.
>> Meher: My lady goods (laughs). Yeah, I'm all about reproductive rights
>> Brian: Yes
>> Meher: So I get very emotional and I like little, talented children. Like children who go up on stage and sing a song. Like an Indian song perfectly with all of their notes and pitches hitting. They sing very earnestly.
>> Brian: So if you cry to that then I want to see you watch like... 9/11 hit shots
>> Meher: Oh I watch those
>> Brian: (laughs) She gets me. She gets me
>> Meher: And I listened to all of the 9/11 911 calls when people were stuck in the towers. And I spent a whole day just listening to every one of those recordings and...
>> Brian: Oh yeah... we're getting some serious tuneage...
>> Meher: From Harlem. The streets of Harlem.
>> Chelsea: Background music
>> Brian: We've got to keep this. But this is good
>> Chelsea: But really we could break early for you to...
>> Meher: Change my tampon?
>> Chelsea: change your lady goods upon this...
>> Brian: Do it now
>> Meher: Listen, I'm not one of these prudish, British people. I will call them what they are supposed to be called. They are called tampons. And there should not be a luxury tax on them
>> Brian: But yeah, no. First I want to talk about serial killers. So yeah, Chelsea's last question was if there was a point in which an intervention could be made that would change the course of events for a serial killer or psychotic person that is going to be very violent?
>> Chelsea: Yeah because this is something that we were kind of talking about on the way over, which is what I was thinking about, was... because I mean in "We Need to Talk About Kevin"... ok, spoiler alert coming up
>> Brian: So you read the book though?
>> Chelsea: Yeah and I've seen the movie.
>> Brian: So was the book better? It usually is
>> Chelsea: I think the book is a little more complex but I think both are actually really good
>> Brian: Yeah, that's why books are still relevant because I don't think you can capture that kind of complexity.
>> Chelsea: Absolutely. You can't capture the kind of emotional, internal complexity of a character like that.
>> Brian: Yes, exactly. You can get the... obviously the visual component is itself jarring. But yeah...
>> Chelsea: Yeah, exactly. Absolutely, I think the movie, in particular, it did a really good job of creating that discomfort and tension from the kind of everyday things
>> Meher: And credit to Tilda Swinton for that
>> Chelsea: Oh absolutely
>> Meher: Because you can almost see her sort of channelizing this agony. Usually when you read... I haven't read the book, I just started last night because I watched the movie a 2nd time
>> Brian: Should we give a little synopsis of this?
>> Meher: Sure. I don't want to give away the spoiler but something violent happens with regards to Kevin which is what the title is after
>> Brian: The eponymous child
>> Meher: The eponymous child. And the movie, at least, is presented as a series of flashbacks and moments through the eyes of the mother played by Tilda Swinton. Kevin... 15 year old teenage Kevin is played by Ezra Miller. And you get all of these flashbacks that Kevin is not a very hospitable child (laughter). It has something to do with the mother, played by Tilda Swinton, and her character's resistance to mothering. She lives this very bohemian, you know, travelogue lifestyle. But she becomes a parent and then that's where it stops so she bears a sort of resentment for this kid. And we know she's struggling playing mother and that may have something to do with it. But this child is incredibly torturous and he really punishes her and tests her
>> Chelsea: He does things up until he's 8 years old. He refuses to be potty trained and makes her change his diaper. And looks her in the eyes
>> Brian: He kind of sounds like a genius
>> Chelsea: Yeah, right? I would still think that (laughs)
>> Meher: He is incredibly smart and very articulate. I mean at 15 years old he says all of these things that you wouldn't expect a regular 15 year old to say. And there's a great degree of intelligence
>> Brian: I imagine that in a workshop
>> Meher: I know
>> Brian: "Would he say this? He's only 15"
>> Chelsea: Right?
>> Meher: But he also clearly shows signs of psychopathic behavior. Especially toward his mom. And this violent thing that he's a participant, we try to understand... that's the fulcrum on where these snapshot exist
>> Chelsea: And also in particular with the emphasis on the fact that she's constantly criticised in her own role as a mother in the book and the way in which that unfolds in her retelling of their relationship and retrospective in what ultimately happens. It raises those questions like was there a time that there could have been an intervention of some kind where therapy would have been a useful tool to introduce or was it that she was so ashamed of what was happening that she couldn't reconcile the two images of her son.
>> Brian: There are psychopaths... you know the dude that wore the Joker costume and went in the movie theater and shot up all of those people?
>> Chelsea: Oh yeah, mhm
>> Brian: Yeah, so I read this book "Capture" which was very good. Katie... ugh, our producers read it first (laughter). And then I read it. And it kind of guides us to this grand unifying theory of mental illness. And it sounds crazy. I mean that sounds like a manifesto for a serial killer themselves but in all reality, honestly it makes a lot of sense. It's this idea that we get fixated on stuff and that's a lot of our problems. So this guy, he tried himself to get help and he told psychiatrists that he wanted to kill people. And he knew that this was a problem
>> Meher: They never addressed it?
>> Brian: I mean, obviously it was addressed to a certain degree. But more going back to what Chelsea was saying just like what could she have done differently because she might have felt ashamed. It's like this guy himself had to go out there and say like "I have this desire to kill people, I have a serious problem", you know? That's really hard to get over. I don't know how he did that and it still happened. It's really mind-boggling to me
>> Chelsea: And it's so interesting, right? Because I wonder what level of that was the kind of protection of people that you're treating and kind of thinking if you have that element self-actualization to be able to stop yourself enough to seek them maybe there's a level of "I don't need to involve authorities, I don't need to make people aware". But you'd think they do even. They do more for people that say that they want to kill themselves than other people then. Because if someone walks into a hospital or psychiatrist and says "I really feel like I'm going to kill myself", they would lock you away. They would section you. All of that stuff. So like where's that line? Like, at what level do we help and intervene.
>> Meher: I know. It's a very tricky thing because I've always believed that there's always enough time for intervention. Simply because I think it was sort of a trip I started to go on last year... Caits who was here on your last podcast
>> Brian: Yes, two. She was on two actually. She was on part 1 and 2 of our criminal justice episodes
>> Meher: Yeah, and she works with the Pen Prison Writing Program and I was helping them out for a period. And it was a question that began then because for me, personally, I always think that there are certain crimes where intervention is good and ok and there are certain crimes in my head that feel so sinister that there is no other alternative to at least lock them up because I don't believe in capital punishment. But just to keep them away. And most of that has to deal with really torturous murder or rape
>> Brian: Or things that it's like this person can just do this again and we don't know how to solve it. So in the time being, at least... I mean it's sad because...
>> Meher: Right. Like, in my head, I'm always ok with white collar crimes and drug related crimes because to those to me those are fine. But in my head I have this moral line
>> Brian: That's interesting because I feel it should be the same sort of standard. It's like if this person is going to keep doing the same thing... because white collar crime you can't see the blood on their hands.
>> Meher: Exactly
>> Brian: So if someone is reaping all of this benefit then someone else is starving out there
>> Meher: Absolutely. I absolutely agree. But in your head because you see the presence of a victim's body and see the mutilation and destruction, there is a... you rate differently from a large-scale capitalist...
>> Brian: Embezzlement
>> Meher: Embezzlement. But I was a part of the Pen Prison Writing Program and I would read all of these pieces by prisoners who had... you know, I didn't know what crimes any of them had committed. But one of them, who won the non-fiction round, by the time his congratulations letter was posted to him, he had already been hung. So if he had been hung, obviously it was a crime that was incredibly harsh. And then I realized, because I remember his piece being my absolute favorite of that year, and it started to lead me onto this territory of questioning. Because that piece was incredibly humanistic and it was incredibly touching. And that really made me consider what rehabilitation and therapy and personal involvement can do to the darkest mind. Obviously in my head certain crimes, emotionally, I feel very vulnerable to letting them off. I mean, not letting them off but saying that they are worthy of reconsideration. But I feel that especially if you have an anti prison institutional stand. If you believe that the idea of having prisons... and even in India we spoke about... when I was in Pen Prison Writing they had the strike going on by prisoners because they petitioned that what they were being forced to do was essentially slavery. It's a modern system of slavery
>> Chelsea: Oh it is. Absolutely. I mean you saw what they did with the prisoners here with the California fires
>> Meher: The California fire, yeah. And even in India, they make you do a lot of work. And the money you accrue through that process is very little when you are released
>> Brian: It's very far below the minimum wage
>> Meher: Yea, it's very far below
>> Chelsea: I was reading this article about how there are prisons in India where they have couples living together and they have free accommodation but they have to go out and work for everything else. But it's like in these closed communities. I think I read an article about this recently.
>> Meher: I wouldn't know anything about it
>> Chelsea: I just think it's interesting because on the one hand... the thing is with my own work with incarcerated alternative education settings with the Right to Write Program, I think I definitely agree that there is such a healing process with rehabilitation and I think I'm a real advocate for that. I think there's something even to be said for the dynamic of having incarcerated individuals rehabilitated through assimilation of workplaces and understanding how to learn crafts and those kinds of things and having those opportunities to learn and to grow. That said, obviously we exploit it and that's where it gets complicated. But I also think it's really interesting what you're saying because I think in cases like for example, one of my family friends is a professor at Bennington and she teaches a college prep course in Sing Sing and one of her students was a serial killer who had killed over 30 people and he was one of the best students in the class. And she sort of was kind of pontificating on this in this level of whether it was that same nature of focus to get away with killing so many people that made him also such an interesting and innovative thinker. Because of that focus he had to basically write an entire manifesto on her class and be her star student. And when you also think about that then you also think about individuals like Ted Bundy who was a suicide hotline worker even throughout many of his years of killing. And you sort of think that there's other sides to all people but that doesn't necessarily mean if they're given those opportunities to do good that they then wouldn't do those other things
>> Meher: Yeah. I agree with that. Although you can argue, especially with Bundy, that he did that because of narcissism or some degree of self protection and self righteousness
>> Chelsea: Yeah, that's very true. To be like "oh I'm a good person, you've got the wrong guy"
>> Brian: Yeah, that gets really complicated. I don't think we'll ever know. Because there's a lot of people that do these things that are bad and the idea that they don't even have remorse... honestly sometimes it isn't even true. They know that they are doing something bad but they might not feel the remorse. But at the same time, someone like Ted Bundy, like those kind of people, it's like having an orgasm for them. Or like something that relieves themselves. Like they are sublimating or manifesting something by killing people, you know?
>> Meher: Yeah. That's a truly negative expression of anger and frustration if there ever was one (laughter)
>> Brian: Yeah, that was my throughline through this whole conversation that we are having. (laughter)
>> Chelsea: If you want to see more anger then come to "Girl on the Hill"
>> Meher: If you like the Ted Bundy documentary then you will also like an angry reading series. (laughter)
>> Brian: And the Animal Riot Podcast
>> Chelsea: We see you're interested in Ted Bundy (laughs)
>> Meher: Netflix recommendation
>> Brian: Yeah, we need to come up with a proprietary algorithm
>> Meher: It's very interesting because one of the things that we say on our website when we are looking for submissions is that PS that this is not a space for airing bigoted anger.
>> Chelsea: Absolutely
>> Meher: That anger can personal, and anger can be political, and it can be communal, but we don't want it to be bigoted and be expressed (coughs)
>> Chelsea: Down your orangecello
>> Brian: Oh yeah, can I have yours if you're not going to drink it?
>> Meher: Sure. I was going to drink it but...
>> Chelsea: You know this tastes like an ear medicine that I had when I was a kid (laughter). Sorry Sergio and Susanna
>> Brian: And Susanna. Seriously. Goddamnit. You're talking about my heroes here. Excuse me. I love it
>> Meher: Love what?
>> Brian: The orangecello
>> Chelsea: I thought you meant Ted Bundy
>> Meher: Now I want to try it
>> Brian: You haven't even tried it yet?
>> Meher: No. Do I take a sip or do I take a shot?
>> Brian: Just take the whole thing. It's fine
>> Chelsea: Girl, you cheersed and you didn't take a sip?
>> Brian: Oh she didn't like it? Is there any left? (laughs)
>> Meher: I like it. I took a very tiny sip. You can have some
>> Brian: Yeah, thank you.
>> Chelsea: I mean I'll continue drinking it. It just tastes like ear medicine. But my ears feel great (laughter)
>> Brian: That's placebo honey (laughter). Clearly. We're having the intervention now.
>> Chelsea: Guys, you need to put down the orangecello.
>> Brian: This is a good segue into Lumina where plenty of serial killers and psychopaths thrive and fester and cultivate our culture
>> Chelsea: You know what's actually interesting is that we do have a story this year that is in a similar vein as "We Need to Talk About Kevin"
>> Meher: Interesting
>> Brian: The same one that's coming out this March?
>> Chelsea: Mhm. So this volume is out in March 2019. Buy it (laughs)
>> Meher: Do we get a contributor's copy?
>> Chelsea: Absolutely. All contributors get a copy and we have got two contributors in the room right here
>> Meher: We're the other two readers (laughter)
>> Brian: Fucking inside job right here man. It's the illuminati. The literati is what we like to call it
>> Chelsea: But we do use the phrase illuminati. Although I really only use it quietly to other people while they get uncomfortable that I'm using it like a dad (laughs)
>> Brian: Now everyone's going to hear it
>> Chelsea: Yeah
>> Meher: I mean it's a great group to be in. Beyonce's in it as they say
>> Brian: No, no. That's the illuminati. This is the luminati.
>> Meher: I know but the luminati is a subset of the illuminati
>> Brian: Is it? Are we paying dues? Are there kickups?
>> Chelsea: I still attest that I don't know what we're talking about.
>> Meher: I have kickups in my chest
>> Brian: You have hiccups (laughs)
>> Chelsea: (laughs) Kickups, hiccups
>> Meher: I have very radical kickups
>> Chelsea: Late boomer (laughs)
>> Meher: I said loomer the first time
>> Brian: There's a language barrier everyone. (laughs) We're trying to figure it out right now (laughs)
>> Meher: We're just going to wait until the limbs find their lettering.
>> Brian: Oh yeah (laughs). I'm not going to describe the grotesque gesture just emphasized my way
>> Meher: I didn't do it
>> Chelsea: But with Lumina this year in particular, we were really focused on participation of different communities, of different identities. Giving voices to underrepresented communities in particular and focusing on experimentation of the written form
>> Meher: How do you experiment with the written form, Chelsea?
>> Chelsea: Oh girl. If only you want to know (laughs). I think especially, I think a lot about sort of difficult writing and it's something...
>> Brian: That's refreshing because I spent my entire life trying to be easier. It's very, very frustrating. Anyways, continue
>> Chelsea: Well no, but absolutely. I think there is an element... because when you're a writer then you're also a business person. You're figuring out how to market yourself and figure out how to get people to listen to you
>> Brian: And also a lot of people don't even know that they have to do that or refuse to believe it and I did that for a very long time. Because being a writer is not being a business person. It's just not. And you can have both of those skills, I'm not saying that they can't coincide but they are really just mutually exclusive. They have nothing to do with one another. And this idea that people have always been forced to market their stuff and blah blah blah... there's probably a kernel of truth that but at the same time they are not the same
>> Meher: But so much of good business is good communication
>> Chelsea: Yeah I agree
>> Brian: Oh I agree but...
>> Meher: Actually all of business. Shark Tank
>> Brian: Let me give you an example... me and Katie have thought about going on Shark Tank and saying "oh Animal Riot, this is our business model" and they'd just be like "people read books?"
>> Meher: Mark Cuban would be like... no. He's the only judge I know
>> Brian: Honestly is Love Island better than Shark Tank?
>> Chelsea: Oh absolutely
>> Meher: No
>> Chelsea: Fight me (laughter)
>> Meher: Love Island is a lot of fun and I have watched 22 episodes in the last week but...
>> Chelsea: I would argue that don't we have enough media in this world that encourages people to shit on each other and here we are with Love Island which is about a community of people all trying to find the person that they will spend the rest of their lives with or at least the next 6 weeks in Portugal with
>> Meher: Most of them are 20 years old. Most of them, at least in the season that I'm watching, are 20 years old.
>> Chelsea: Oh except for that one old hag who is like 30
>> Meher: She's amazing. She's the best, rest in peace. But she's dead dude
>> Brian: She's dead?
>> Meher: Yeah that's a whole other Love Island thing
>> Chelsea: Ok so you don't know but that's the really weird thing while we were watching Love Island was that I cannot wait to get to the end when it's an old season because the season that I'm watching now came out in 2015/2016. So we were kind of texting and it's weird because in particular with 2016 it feels like a cursed season because all of the other seasons that I have researched so far have been like "oh this person is an Instagram model now" and it's like "oh ok yeah". But we have this one character on the show... well person on the show named Mollin and she's had a miscarriage, both of her parents died of cancer in the years since she left the show, and then we have...
>> Brian: Did she find anyone on the show?
>> Meher: She did who she got voted out...
>> Chelsea: Because she picked him and left this other guy
>> Meher: I just saw that episode so I know... One day after she got voted out, the guy that she was paired with, fuck you Terry, fucks this other girl immediately. Even though he insists he will be committed to her and they're still a couple
>> Chelsea: Yeah he's like "babe you're the girl for me"
>> Brian: But does that benefit him in the show?
>> Meher: No because he lost eventually. Because I know who the winners are
>> Chelsea: Yeah, we know who the winners are
>> Brian: Oh so you know who the winners are?
>> Meher: Yeah because it's from season 2. It's from like 3 years
>> Brian: Oh well you can't be going on Google and shit. Come on that ruins the fun
>> Meher: It's Love Island. Didn't you watch Ted Bundy? Don't you know what he did?
>> Chelsea: It's not a secret. You know the end of that story (laughter)
>> Brian: No, we haven't watched Ted Bundy yet and I don't know the end of that story (laughter)
>> Chelsea: Well spoiler, he's a serial killer (laughs)
>> Meher: And a necrophiliac
>> Brian: Our producers are saying that she doesn't want to know the end of the story. To me, honestly I see that preview and I'm like "wow a strapping young man embroiled in controversy. Who knows?"
>> Chelsea: Everyone's talking about how hot he was but he looks like a dude that's checking out your groceries. I don't know (laughs)
>> Meher: That's the whole point. He was supposed to be incredibly charming. I think he's legitimately, generally good-looking
>> Chelsea: I actually had a friend back in my undergrad of creative writing who used to write letters to...
>> Meher: Ted Bundy?
>> Chelsea: No, well he's dead so that would be silly
>> Meher: Well you can write letters to dead people. I've done it. I did it to God once
>> Brian: You wrote a letter to God?
>> Chelsea: God is dead
>> Meher: God is dead. Nietzsche?
>> Brian: Yeah I think it's Nietzsche
>> Chelsea: So I did have a friend that used to write to guys in prison and just like pen pal type of stuff. But she actually ended up marrying one of them when he was released
>> Meher: (gasps) Oh my God
>> Brian: That's so hot.
>> Chelsea: Yeah, and you know she loved it
>> Brian: I wonder what that sex... I want a Love Island group cheering section
>> Chelsea: I feel like they should have that
>> Meher: That's like the woman who married Ted Bundy while he was still in prison
>> Chelsea: Well doesn't Charles Manson have like 5 wives or something?
>> Meher: Yeah, Charles Manson. And oh... there was a Bikini Killer from India. He is real fun
>> Chelsea: Oh so fun. Bikini Killer (laughs)
>> Meher: He was called Bikini Killer because he would approach all of these women at the beach.
>> Brian: Like he would be wearing a bikini?
>> Meher: No, they were wearing bikinis.
>> Brian: Oh (laughs)
>> Chelsea: Only underneath his shirt and shorts
>> Meher: And he would rape and murder and kill them. And he was called the Bikini Killer. And then when he went to jail, when he was in prison, he ended up having a girlfriend
>> Chelsea: Did he make her wear a bikini
>> Meher: No
>> Brian: Is this like the James Franco movie?
>> Meher: No
>> Brian: Springbreakers?
>> Meher: That Spring Breakers movie? It's a good movie
>> Brian: I think it was a solid movie?
>> Meher: I think it was a one and James Franco was good in it even though he's become very sketchy
>> Chelsea: I never watched it
>> Meher: So this Bikini Killer managed to fall in love while he was in prison and then was married (chip crunch) (laughter). Can we all do this?
>> Chelsea: Brought to you by Veggie Chips
>> Brian: Guys, who is the Bikini Killer
>> Meher: It's not just Veggie Chips. Representing India is Ananth Jackfruit Chips.
>> Chelsea: Representing... wait where is hummus from? (laughter)
>> Meher: Lebanon
>> Brian: Where is humus from? At the bottom of the Dead Sea humus spouts like a geyser (laughter)
>> Meher: All of the places that America sends its armies to
>> Brian: Alright guys, let's talk about one more thing
>> Meher: Let's talk about India
>> Brian: We talked about Lumina. Oh you want to talk about it more? Ok let's talk about Lumina more
>> Chelsea: Sorry, Lumina more
>> Brian: Lumina more. This is the next segment of our podcast called Lumina More. Lumina Now
>> Chelsea: Yeah Lumina Now. For one night only. Lumina (laughter). So this year has been pretty exciting because we've arisen from the dusty basement of Sarah Lawrence College and brought it to life. We've revamped it, we did a whole redesign...
>> Brian: So everyone from my year and our producer's year sucked?
>> Chelsea: Yeah we were like "you guys don't know what you're doing"
>> Brian: Yeah, fair enough. That's fine
>> Chelsea: Absolutely not. I think all of the years have been absolutely great for lots of different reasons. I think that... don't laugh at my #politiciananswer (laughter)... I think it's always the problem with a press that is run by successive years of students. It's like a palimpsest of everything that's come before it, right? Like everything has its own flavor, different things. That said, we have developed Firefly Literary Podcast. We also have our new multilingual project Lingua which focuses on reimagining the translation section of Larry Journal and decentering the English language. And it's been a really really exciting time for us on doing a lot different projects with that, working on this redesign, and I just feel like we really made it our own. Which I think has been really exciting
>> Brian: Do you think that's going to keep going down the line? Because you said that it's tough for new students so do you think you have created something that's going to last?
>> Chelsea: I absolutely hope so. I think if nothing else, we have reinvigorated a lot of excitement surrounding it. Because I think for a long time it has been following the same dynamic and nowadays when people see the Lumina name it's attached to a lot of exciting things. And I think in particular it's just about focusing on making it as exciting as possible for the next generation, as it were, of people to take it on and make it their own again.
>> Brian: Interesting
>> Chelsea: You know I don't expect people to keep it exactly the same. I would be crazy to think that past when I leave that everything is going to continue on as it were. But I think that's the best part
>> Brian: So the new thing is basically making sure everyone can do a new thing?
>> Chelsea: Yeah. I think that's what I would find even more exciting. Almost that it's focusing its branding towards and lends itself towards the aspect that everything is going to be new and exciting every year.
>> Brian: And it's synergized by the fact that you guys get to do it. It's not just "oh here's a new thing that someone grandfathers down to you" or something less patriarchal (laughs)
>> Chelsea: Yeah exactly. Right, it's not like a queen that's getting into her throne and putting on a blanket and just sitting there with her corgis. It's like you're really taking on something and connecting to it
>> Brian: That's pretty cool though. I love corgis
>> Meher: That's a blatant attack on Elizabeth II (laughter). From the Crown, my favorite Netflix show
>> Chelsea: I would argue that the corgis, I would never attack
>> Brian: I watched the first few episodes but was like nothings happening
>> Meher: No, but a lot happens
>> Brian: Does it?
>> Chelsea: It's British. You don't know what's happening but it's happening
>> Brian: Let me say this. Meher, get one out (coughs). I did not know that our lovely producer's lovely sister of Via Design did Lumina's website? I had no idea
>> Chelsea: Absolutely. And she did a fantastic job
>> Brian: She also did Animal Riot logo
>> Chelsea: Yeah, she and her husband are so talented. Honestly, I would definitely make sure to check her out.
>> Brian: And you can also check her out on... uh... episode 4? Really? Damn, we've done a lot since then
>> Chelsea: Yeah so check out episode 4
>> Brian: We'll edit that out if it's wrong (laughter)
>> Chelsea: And she absolutely did a fantastic job. They got onboard with everything about our new vision. The website looks amazing. Helped us with the redesign of our book, as well as Jonathan from HR Roba who has worked with Lumina for years. And it's been a really great collaborative process
>> Brian: Cool. She wanted to make sure I said her name. I'm plugging everyone. It's all good
>> Chelsea: Lizzie and Sean from Via Design are incredibly talented. Like genuinely.
>> Brian: And they're very smart
>> Chelsea: They're also very fun to work with. Like honestly I can't even the amount of phone calls that I've had with them where we would start with one part of our design and then 20 minutes we would be talking about the roundabouts in London. And I would be like I don't know how we got here but I am here for it
>> Meher: I enjoy it
>> Brian: They're great people and their dogs are cute
>> Chelsea: I never witnessed that but I imagine so
>> Meher: All dogs are cute
>> Brian: Yeah
>> Chelsea: Have you have you had someone be like "no, this dog sucks"
>> Meher: I do have to say that about Pomeranians
>> Brian: Some people say that about Rosetta
>> Chelsea: Those little fuzz balls?
>> Meher: Poms are the worst dogs and every single Indian auntie in India has a pom. You know, it's a very popular Indian dog. Maybe because it's so white and we've always wanted to be like white people (laughter) so we got white dogs. But God, that dog is really annoying.
>> Chelsea: I'd argue that it's not a dog if you can lose it down the back of your couch
>> Meher: It's not that tiny but you know...
>> Chelsea: Well I guess I can lose almost anything down the back of my couch (laughs)
>> Brian: Did you just... is there an Indian Twitter?
>> Meher: There's an Indian Twitter? No
>> Brian: What? I just got asked to ask that
>> Meher: No, the whole speaking of anger as...
>> Brian: So you're saying Twitter in India. Indian people using Twitter
>> Meher: Indian people on Twitter speaking about Indian things.
>> Brian: I just got setup (laughs)
>> Meher: No but like speaking of anger, right? At least like, I know that Katie is a witness...
>> Brian: No, that's our producers
>> Meher: Our producers?
>> Chelsea: Our producer
>> Meher: The producer is a witness
>> Brian: Producers. Our producers
>> Meher: She keeps asking me about how I rant a lot on Twitter. I actually don't do it as much as a lot of other Indians on Twitter
>> Brian: Yeah, keep tell yourself that (laughs)
>> Meher: Well. Twitter does become a sort of cesspool for political frustration and anger. And in India, so much so because yesterday... not even yesterday, just today the three major parties tweeted gifs at each other. Which was just like a very... we didn't...
>> Brian: Like they wired billions in cryptocurrency to each other? Like I don't understand what that means
>> Meher: No gifs. Gif images
>> Chelsea: We give each other gifs
>> Meher: Gifs
>> Brian: So they were moving images
>> Meher: They were moving gif images that they tweeted to each other
>> Brian: That's not as good as a lot of bitcoin, I've got to admit (laughs)
>> Meher: It's its own fun. But we never thought we would live to see the day that you have these three political parties channel the millenial on Twitter and do this process of meme sharing and it was just like kill me right fucking now. Like half of the people in these parties are illiterates. I can't believe this party...
>> Brian: What were the gifs?
>> Meher: It was just ridiculous. One person put a video, the other person shared, the other party shared a gif of Nancy Pelosi clapping at Trump like "oh you tried, you tried", and the third political party put a gif of Michael Jackson or someone eating popcorn like "oh we're watching both of you fight"
>> Brian: Where are the Indian references? Why are we outsourcing our references here?
>> Meher: Obviously because they have a fricken 22 year old doing their social media. I think that's what it comes down to. There are a lot of Indian references on Twitter. Most of them come from Bollywood which is its own little cesspool. But yeah, it's a thing. You'll find a lot of Indian gifs on Twitter
>> Chelsea: But I wonder also... because obviously there is a kind of world, globalized gif culture.
>> Meher: Yeah, sure. But I think we've lived through... I think essentially... of course it's a little incriminating to say that India battles century's old rhetoric in terms of political ideology. But so does America. Like we are still discussing abortion in 2019 in America so evangelical influence is really high in American politics.
>> Brian: Yeah. I mean slavery is still...
>> Meher: Yeah, race. I mean it would be absurd to say that Indian politics is really regressive but it really is also. I mean the whole rhetoric of communal discord being used and manipulated to fashion a large-scale political rewriting of the country because we are a secular country. Democratically we do not associate with a religion. The state does not associate with a religion but there is a large-scale attempt to move it to the Hindu fundamental right. And all of this regressive nonsense is happening and then the 3 political parties sharing gifs feels like such a weird... It feels like a wormhole. Like a real life rhetoric does not meet up with the sophistication and the sort of modernity of the online rhetoric. And that is what is absurd. Because you have the Prime Minister of the country say some of the most bigoted and communal shit and he was responsible for one of the most serious communal pogroms of the country. He justified it, he let it happen
>> Brian: Who?
>> Meher: Who is the Indian Prime Minister?
>> Brian: You said program?
>> Meher: Yeah. The Hindu Muslim Pogrom in the state of Gujarat
>> Brian: Hindu Muslim? But those are two different factions
>> Meher: So the pogrom was on the Muslims. There was this communal rioting that was happening but essentially it became a large scale massacre of Muslims in Gujarat and there was a large scale looting, and raping, and murdering.
>> Brian: And that's a thing that's not isolated to this event?
>> Meher: That's not isolated but the person who was the Chief Minister at the time and who was justifiably lenient with the proceedings and who is a member of the Hindu right is now the Prime Minister of the country. So there's this large scale political rewriting that is happening. And it just feels that every single day... we're 70 years away from our Independence... we're a relatively young country, a very young country. But at the same time we are regressing. We've become even more communal. We've become more casteist. Caste issues are coming up. I mean it's not like they ever went and we never decided keep a caste system back in the day
>> Brian: That's caste for all of us Americans out there
>> Meher: Yeah so there's all of this rewriting happening and also a lot of the members of these parties are criminals and a lot of them are just...
>> Brian: That's like everywhere in the world.
>> Meher: That's like everywhere in the world but we aren't talking about white collar crimes.
>> Brian: We're talking about pogroms
>> Meher: Yeah, we aren't talking about taking money from the gas and diesel industry and now I'm going to deregulate or whatever. This is just like baseline level "I'm going to murder your fucking mother" kind of criminal behavior. And a lot of these people have criminals as political party members so it just feels like the crap that we hear in our lives as being a part of the Indian political system is so baseline and so fundamentally regressive that when you have the political parties tweeting gifs at each other it's just like "come on, don't kid me, don't do this". And it was just incredibly embarrassing for everyone watching from the sidelines. Somebody tweeted... oh God I wish I never lived to see this day (snickers)... I very much echo that
>> Brian: How did we get here?
>> Meher: How did we get here, right?
>> Brian: Let's talk about how Indian Twitter feeds back to the Angry Reading Series and your work (chuckles)
>> Chelsea: Absolutely
>> Brian: These closers are always the hardest. We're always like "how do we close this?"
>> Meher: You know, funnily enough I have always been an angry person. But having Twitter as a venue when there isn't as much...
>> Brian: Repercussions
>> Meher: Not just repercussions but...
>> Brian: Oh can I tell you, speaking of which, I have a friend that was banned from Twitter...
>> Meher: Yeah I know so many people that were banned from Twitter
>> Brian: (laughs) You know so many? You're angrier than me. You know more angry people
>> Meher: I mean Indian Twitter is angry. Rightfully so. Wrongfully so also
>> Brian: Were they from death threats?
>> Meher: Yeah, I've had death threats
>> Brian: You've gotten death threats?
>> Meher: I've gotten death threats
>> Brian: Did they get banned?
>> Meher: I didn't report them. For me I would just stop responding. Also I am fairly unimportant as a person so it's not like I got a thousand death threats. They were maybe 5 and who cares about 5 death threats right?
>> Brian: That's pretty decent. You should be proud of yourself
>> Chelsea: Yeah, honestly that's notoriety (laughter)
>> Meher: I am. That's what keeps me up at night as a journalist. The death threats are still very cutting and vulgar and at least to the point. But the other day just two weeks ago...
>> Brian: So their good writers, that's what you're saying?
>> Meher: Not good writers but they're succinct, you know? They're pithy
>> Brian: I don't know. I think you're describing good writers. "I kill you tonight" (laughter)
>> Chelsea: So true. That's staccato beat with that syntax
>> Meher: It's like slam poetry. "I kill you.... tonight"
>> Chelsea: Wait, wait, Meher...
>> Both: Dear baby
>> Brian: That was magical (laughter)
>> Chelsea: So we went to... (laughter) we went to Governor's Island for a poetry festival over the summer and we basically went and we were watching all of these poets reading their work out loud and we realized there's always this way that poets read their word
>> Meher: This rhythm
>> Brian: Oh we've talked about this on this podcast before. Poet voice
>> Chelsea: Oh mhm. And it's always like "the... veggie .... chips"
>> Brian: "I... went... to get some veggie chips... and... they were so good. They were soooooo good". Except sadder than that. That was kind of sultry (laughs)
>> Meher: No it wasn't Brian
>> Chelsea: Actually you have that slight downward tone... at the end... of each... line
>> Brian: Because it's very... rife... and real
>> Meher: And when you think... my brain... says to me... that... is who... you know (laughter). You can make a poem on the go
>> Chelsea: Meanwhile we also had this thing where we got... basically when we got bored of slam poetry...
>> Brian: I kind of want to do poems now (laughs)
>> Meher: We did that for 3 hours
>> Chelsea: Yeah, we sat on this swing set and there was this baby that got handed to Meher. It was like a very hippie community moment
>> Brian: Because of the poems?
>> Meher: No, no, no. The baby's father. Because there were two swings.
>> Chelsea: He was just like "um my baby really wants to come on this swing". And he just sort of awkwardly...
>> Meher: And the baby obviously couldn't sit on the swing by himself because he was small
>> Chelsea: And we weren't getting off because we deserved to be on the swing
>> Meher: Because we traveled all the way to Governor's Island. And this dad is like "here, take this baby" and he gives me his baby (laughter)
>> Chelsea: I was too awkward. I get very awkward around babies
>> Brian: Was this dad going to the poetry thing?
>> Meher: Yeah, he was doing his thing
>> Chelsea: Yeah, with his baby drinking beer, you know?
>> Meher: And he gave me the baby and I held onto the baby and we ended up doing this poem
>> Chelsea: This thing of being like "dear baby" and we were like "dear baby, sometimes you will go... to a poetry festival... but there will not be poetry... but just... disappointment"
>> Meher: "I will hand you... to a girl... on the swing... and that... will be... the story... of your life."
>> Chelsea: "Dear baby"
>> Meher: "Think about that moment... every time you think about me... how I gave you away...for the love... of life."
>> Chelsea: "Dear baby... sometimes... birth... will feel a lot like living. Constantly little birds... in this downward motion... until death."
>> Brian: "Dear baby"
>> Meher: "Maybe your age saves you from this life of man" (laughter)
>> Brian: You want to hear something really funny? There is a framed poem in my parents' bedroom
>> Chelsea: That says dear bay?
>> Brian: No, it's called "Flower Baby". I wrote it when I was 10 years old (laughter)
>> Chelsea: Wait, wait, "flower baby"
>> Brian: "Flower baby... on the wall... there is a corner... geometrically"
>> Meher: Why do you sound like you're 70 years old? (laughter)
>> Chelsea: "Geometrically there is a corner... flower baby" (laughter)
>> Brian: That's my grandma's accent. My bubby (laughter). Ok we're going to close it up now (laughter). I want to keep doing that though. That was really fun. We should have a whole episode where we just do that
>> Chelsea: A bonus episode of just "Dear Baby"
>> Brian: That was awesome (laughs)
>> Chelsea: Well thanks for having us on this podcast. Thanks for bringing "Dear Baby" to the masses
>> Brian: "You're... welcome" (laughter). "Bye" (laughter)
>> Chelsea: Bye
>> Brian: Ok that's it for today's episode. If you like what you heard then please subscribe and review on whatever platform that you are listening on. This has been the 9th episode of the Animal Riot Podcast brought to you by Animal Riot Press featuring Meher Manda and Chelsea Asher. And is produced by Katie Rainey without whom we would merely be 4... 3 of Shakespeare's monkeys banging on a typewriter.