Episode 6: Insane Literary Posse
February 2nd, 2019
Hosted by Brian Birnbaum
Guest: Ian Anderson
Produced by Katie Rainey
Transcripts by Jonathan Kay
In this fourth episode of our Animals Hit the Road series, the Animal Riot Podcast hosts Ian Anderson, co-founder of Mason Jar Press, a literary imprint headquartered in Baltimore. After discussing Mason Jar's origins, we dive headlong into pro wrestling as the modern iteration of Shakespeare and the hidden genius of the Insane Clown Posse. For our final act, we perform the Olympian mental gymnastics necessary to tie such material back into our literary aspirations.
>> Narration: Welcome to the Animal Riot Hour brought to you by Animal Riot, a literary press for "books that matter". This marks the fifth episode of "Animals Hit the Road" during which we will be touring some cities and talking to some interesting people about some interesting things.
Right now we are here with Ian Anderson, cofounder of Mason Jar Press, an indie press out of Baltimore. And just really quick, today's challenge... or this hour's brand of fuckery is brought to you by The Holiday Hangover and the challenge is for us to consume these profoundly middling beers which I'm holding up now. Cheers (cheers around). And to do so without once complaining about gluten or hops and the lack of trappist alchemy.
Yeah, ok, how about you introduce you. Or introduce yourself.
>> Ian: Me? Alright. I'm Ian Anderson. I'm the editor-in-chief of Mason Jar Press. Also one of the co-founders along with Mike Taeger. We have been going strong now, or going at a steady pace anyways, for 4 years about. The beginning of Mason Jar Press is kind of quasi. Like I don't know which was the actual beginning of it, we kind of fell into it
>> Brian: Maybe the first book that came out?
>> Ian: Well, yeah. But then which was the first book (laughs)? I don't know if we want to get into the history of Mason Jar Press
>> Brian: Yeah, let's do it. I just want to mention before we do that that Mike doesn't even know what a podcast is
>> Ian: Yeah, so he won't hear this. We can say whatever we want about him.
>> Brian: So he's basically at an object permanence issue where we don't exist right now (laughter)
>> Ian: Yeah, anything that happens here is none of Mike's concern
>> Brian: (laughs) Ok, great.
>> Ian: So Mason Jar Press... I went to University of Baltimore here in Baltimore and graduated in 2014. And as part of that program, you have to self-publish a book. Your final manuscript, your thesis, is a self-published book. You have to write it, you have to design it, and you have to get it printed. Or handmade, some people do handmade books and stuff
>> Brian: Yeah, yeah
>> Ian: And I needed a name for the press that I was making up, right there, for my thesis which was just going to be 200 books and that was it, and I put Mason Jar Books on there. So that's kind of technically the first Mason Jar Press book but Mason Jar Press was not a thing when I did that. And then a year or so later, Mike wanted to put out a chat book and I'm a designer and he asked me to design it
>> Brian: This is poetry?
>> Ian: Yeah, this the pop...pop poems collection. I think that's what he called it. I forget what we ended up calling it
>> Brian: You can't even remember? Your own book (laughs)
>> Ian: No, but it was three books. Three mini chatbooks. Poems on Taye Diggs, poems about Patrick Swayze (laughter), and poems about the Hoff. David Hasselhoff.
>> Brian: I love it. This explains the pop culture segment of your guys' podcast
>> Ian: Yeah, basically
>> Brian: Is it called Mason Jar Press Podcast or something?
>> Ian: Mason Jar Press presents the pop thang. I produce it and edit it and all that but do not host. So yeah, Mike came to me and wanted me to design those books so I did. And as I was reading them... the first of the poems are hilarious. He has a love poem to Taye Diggs where it says "I love you like I love my wife" (laughter). And reading it, in the back of my head I knew from doing the thesis project for University of Baltimore I was like "this is doable, I can publish other people's books." There's a pathway where like... in the olden days, like back in the 90's, to be a publisher you needed a lot of capital and stuff and resources and all that. And in 2018, 2015, it's not the same thing anymore. Anyone can start a press for the cost of an Adobe Suite.
>> Brian: Yep. Print-on-demand is a beautiful thing
>> Ian: So we don't print-on-demand. We work with a printer but...
>> Brian: You guys just do print runs?
>> Ian: We do print runs, yeah. Shoutout to Spencer Printing in Honesdale Pennsylvania. They are the coolest
>> Brian: We gotta check them. Have we checked them out yet? We're going to have to
>> Ian: Yeah, check them out. They are the best. We have been working with them the entire time. They print all of our books. The prices are exceedingly reasonable. It's digitally printed so it's not offset or anything like that. They have those capabilities but we don't do that because it's not cost effective to do that. But the power to actually start a press is... I think people think it's harder than it actually is, to start a press. Running a press is a different story but if you just want to start it.
>> Brian: Scaling it is a different story.
>> Ian: Yeah, scaling is different
>> Brian: But if you just want to put a book out there. You can do it
>> Ian: Mhm. And even if you just wanted to self-publish, you can do it. You can print books for $4 a piece and sell them for $15.
>> Brian: That's actually how we started. I made some sort of flippant, invidious text to all of my friends here... all of my friends live back here in Baltimore except for save like two of them. I had my novel in with a couple of presses but I was expecting the same old rejection. And I made some comments about that and that's how Jon approached us, Jon Kay our third co-founder. And so here we are. And that's it, I was going to self-publish it. Well, I was threatening to. I was threatening the cosmos to self-publish my book (laughter)
>> Ian: Yeah. And, you know, self-publishing gets a bad rap but I think it's because there's a lot of bad self-published books out there. That doesn't make self-publishing bad.
>> Brian: Yeah, gatekeeper is good and bad, right? Like there's a lot of shitty books that come out when you let anyone publish a book
>> Ian: Yeah. Right
>> Brian: But at the same time that's what one of my favorite writers, I don't know how many times I'm going to say his name on this podcast. He's going to start thinking I'm stalking him or something. But Sergio De La Pava, I don't know if you've heard of him.
>> Ian: Not as familiar, no
>> Brian: You should check... I don't know if you're in the maximalist thing but he's kind of like a modern day Joyce. His first novel was like "The Ulysses" of the new millenium. It's called "A Naked Singularity" and I could not recommend it more
>> Ian: Ok
>> Brian: I really have told this story a billion times but I'm going to tell it again
>> Ian: Well I haven't heard it
>> Brian: He tried to get an agent for 3 years. No one would take it. Too "difficult", you know, I'm using air quotes now. Like, you know, all that shit. Same old crap. And his wife pseudo-secretly self-publishes. Somewhat furtively I guess. And it just blows up and the University of Chicago Press picks it up. I think it sold like 30,000 copies or something.
>> Ian: And that's the thing, right? If you self-publish it, that doesn't mean that's the end of the road.
>> Brian: Right, although they'll tell you that
>> Ian: They'll tell you that. It's not true
>> Brian: People in the industry will tell you that but it's not true
>> Ian: You can print with a small press and still be picked up because we are doing numbers that do not hurt Random House, right?
>> Brian: Yeah
>> Ian: I am thrilled with how many books we have sold but I'm sure a middling seller for Simon and Schuster or Penguin outsells us and they consider that a failure, right?
>> Brian: Yeah
>> Ian: So the numbers we are doing are not affecting the Big 5. How many are we at now? Because they keep consolidating.
>> Brian: It's still 5 but they are working on 4.
>> Ian: It's going to be the Big 1 and Amazon is going to own it
>> Brian: Yeah, right. That's very true. That makes me think of a question... I think we spoke about this I think on our 2nd episode and one of my ideas, and I don't know if you agree with this, but I really think the Big 5, or whatever they do when they consolidate at some point, really should just start being ok with relinquishing literary work. Because that's not where they make their money anyway and they do kind of a shitty job of it.
>> Ian: Yeah
>> Brian: Books like "A Naked Singularity" are a great example. This book is clearly on fire. No one can recognize that or everyone's too scared to recognize that because it's too difficult
>> Ian: I think it's the latter. I think they can't figure out how to market that kind of book
>> Brian: Right. And I wonder how did his wife do it? I would love to talk to her more about it, she's amazing
>> Ian: Episode 6
>> Brian: Yeah, maybe. We're going to have Sergio on to talk about criminal justice. In addition to being a tour de force writer, he's also a public defender. Him and his wife are. So somehow they find the time to do all this shit. Makes me feel like an asshole (laughs)
>> Ian: I don't know, I can't write and go to the grocery store on the same day. I gotta pick one (laughter)
>> Brian: Yeah, exactly. I think we have drugs for that now (laughter)
>> Ian: Or an app at least (laughter)
>> Brian: Yeah, right. That kind of struck me because I really think they are doing a bad job at it. And they are doing a great job at making a shit ton of money on other stuff. Keep doing that. Make some cookbooks
>> Ian: They survive on their tenpole books. They publish, I don't know what the numbers are, I'm making this up, but let's say they publish 15 books a month. They only need 1 of those books a year to hit to pay for the other ones.
>> Brian: That's their business model
>> Ian: They're just guessing. Obviously the quality of the work matters. I'm not saying it doesn't matter. But there's a lot of good stuff that people don't read or never find out about. What's the biggest book now? Well, probably Michelle Obama's "Becoming". Not that one, that's a bad example. I don't know, pick your Dan Brown though. Dan Brown's "Da Vinci Code". Why is that an international best seller? It's a bit lucky. He's really good at what he does...
>> Brian: Sure, sure
>> Ian: ...if that's your cup of tea. And I'm not making any judgement on Dan Brown
>> Brian: There's this whole lecture making judgements on Dan Brown. What is that one called? Anthony Doors, that's right. Have you ever heard of this?
>> Ian: No
>> Brian: There's this thing that's on some random cloud app. I don't even know if it's iTunes, I have no fucking clue. But he just breaks down the first page of "The Da Vinci Code", it's hilarious. Kind of like pointing out "oh here's simultaneous action", "this doesn't work", "this is shitty writing". It's pretty funny. But I mean, I'm not knocking that stuff. You know, I don't give a shit
>> Ian: Yeah and millions of people have read that book so...
>> Brian: What he's doing, he's clearly great at it, and I don't care. And I think that big publishers should continue to publish that stuff. They should just stop meddling in literary fiction as much unless they are going to start putting their weight behind it because that's the problem. They're taking on authors, 1 of the 15 literary books let's say, we don't know the numbers...
>> Ian: Yeah, making up numbers
>> Brian: ... 1 of them is going to pick up a little bit and then they're going to put some publicity behind it. Everyone is midlisted and then you're fucked. At that point what's the difference between that and being published by an indie press.
>> Ian: I think what you're also saying is that because power has been consolidated so much at the top and the means of distribution and the means of creation has become so democratized, you're starting to see all of these little presses pop up
>> Brian: Like music. I always say that too
>> Ian: And music. They are very similar in terms of business dynamics.
>> Brian: Yeah, I feel like literature is a little bit behind the curve because of how long it takes to consume a book and to start a press feels a little more involved. Anyone can create a music studio in their basement and kind of put out an album in a little bit
>> Ian: Yeah, I kind of feel like we are making mixtapes down in the basement sometimes with Mason Jar. Like we are good at it but I feel like we are making mixtapes in the basement (laughter)
>> Brian: With the books themselves or the whole recipe?
>> Ian: Yeah, I say this all the time "man I'm so glad no one knows we are faking this so much" (laughter). Like, and it's working, it really is.
>> Brian: At least you not wearing a suit and tie while you're doing it like the other people are (laughs)
>> Ian: But I was not endowed with any great knowledge of how to publish a book. Like, I'm just a moron trying to figure this out. I feel like that's most people if we are willing to admit it to ourselves. I don't know, I feel like a kid playing dress up all the time. But that's just me in life
>> Brian: But you know good books.
>> Ian: I do. Well, I think I do
>> Brian: And that's the important part
>> Ian: Well taste and content are always going to be king. When we publish a book, I know we are going to sell that book because it's really well-written. And all I have to do is not fuck that up
>> Brian: (laughs) Oh yeah, yeah. I agree. Something else I am curious about is if you are doing anything around Baltimore. Because we were talking earlier before we got on the air, so to speak.
>> Ian: Yeah
>> Brian: Just about getting involved in our community and how we... who cares if we know about publishing. We will figure that out as we go. But we are kind of really interested in seeing how to get more people involved in what we are doing? Both on a practical level, like literally, because we have all of these artists coming on board and making animal illustrations for our website, and all of these contributors, and whatnot. And also spreading the idea of our reading series. How do we get everyone in a proverbial room to start caring about what we are doing and start caring about critical thinking and literature in the way that we do?
>> Ian: Yeah, I mean you guys are doing better at that than we are at Mason Jar
>> Brian: Well the reading series, sure. That's definitely been great. We just started the press but you guys have been doing this longer than we have, you know?
>> Ian: Yeah, well we have been doing the press longer. But the question of how do we connect with community is one that I do think about but haven't really wrapped my head around how to do it yet
>> Brian: But you guys were involved with "Writers and Words" over there for a little bit, right?
>> Ian: Yeah, so Mike and Michelle Juno... well Michelle started it and Mike was a quick follower...
>> Brian: And Michele's the one who read at Animal Riot... goddamnit I'm blanking on the book that I just heard the name of...
>> Ian: "Notes From My Phone"?
>> Brian: "Notes From My Phone"
>> Ian: Mason Jar Press 2015 (laughs)
>> Brian: I loved her reading by the way. I just smoke too much weed, that's my problem.
>> Ian: (laughs) We had to convince her that that was a book
>> Brian: Oh really?
>> Ian: Yeah because it was literally notes from her phone. Like she wrote a memoir accidentally while in line at the grocery store
>> Brian: I feel like there's a risk... I don't know if this is what she was thinking, but I feel like when you have something like that you're like "shit am I don't something that's too millennial" and like "is this too phillistinish".
>> Ian: Yeah it's totally millennial
>> Brian: But fuck it, it was great. Some people suck at it and some people are better at it.
>> Ian: And I think that's a little bit of puritanical work ethic that's being placed on things. "Well if you work on it really hard, that makes it good. And if you didn't work on it really hard then that means it's bad"
>> Brian: Yeah
>> Ian: And that's not true. You could write something in 20 minutes and have it be on fire or you could spend 20 years writings something and it could be shit. The amount of time you spend on something does not necessarily mean how good it is
>> Brian: Mhm. There's so many other factors like temperament and all that stuff that plays in
>> Ian: And to be fair, we took notes from the phone and there was editing and there was... light editing. We didn't want to destroy the concept of it that it was literally stuff she wrote while in line at the grocery store. But we did some line editing and reorganized it to give it a more narrative arc. So light touches on that one. So there was more work than just "oh I wrote this at a stoplight"
>> Brian: More than just transferring it from phone to word document?
>> Ian: Right. But Michelle is just a good writer. She can't help but write good notes (laughter). Her grocery list sounds like a poem and that's because she's just a good writer. You don't have to do much there
>> Brian: Broccoli florets
>> Ian: Yeah, broccoli florets. And that next to tissues kind of tells a story in and of itself. Whether that story is interesting, I don't know. It was interesting to us.
>> Brian: Yeah. So you guys were involved with their reading series
>> Ian: Oh yeah, that's what we were talking about. Yeah so "Writers and Words", and so we did that for a number of years. I stepped out. It's still going, Michelle's still running that
>> Brian: Were you guys helping to host? Or helping to bring people there? Or helping to set stuff up?
>> Ian: Yeah, the very first one when it wasn't a series, it was just a reading, I hosted it. Michelle just needed a host and she asked me to host
>> Brian: I need to pause you right there. I don't know if our lovely producer Katie could hear this. But I tell her about the Baltimore accent because I'm from Baltimore to. And that you said "host"
>> Ian: Oh
>> Brian: Do you know about that?
>> Ian: I do but do you know what the scary thing is? I'm not from Baltimore
>> Brian: Oh you're not? Then you definitely picked it up
>> Ian: I'm from Philly
>> Brian: Oh well there might be a little of a crossover there
>> Ian: I'm from Philly, South Jersey.
>> Brian: Interesting
>> Ian: But I went to school on the Eastern Shore here in Maryland for undergrad. I went to grad school here in Baltimore and now I've been living here for 8 years?
>> Brian: Ok 8 years is long enough
>> Ian: Sometimes I say "home".
>> Brian: Yep, that's the one
>> Ian: And that's also Jersey too
>> Brian: Right, I guess it's more of that section. Anyway, continue, but I had to point that out
>> Ian: I tell my wife all the time that I don't have an accent. But she's from Australia so she really has an accent
>> Brian: Oh, I see.
>> Ian: But the reading series, yeah. So I hosted (with accent, laughter) for the first one, I don't know, I think I helped clean up chairs once and it was like "hey want to come to the next meeting?" We were figuring out...
>> Brian: Is that an AA joke by the way? (laughter)
>> Ian: No, that's a different meeting
>> Brian: Because that's what it sounded like. That's literally like "I'm on commitment, I'm going to help fold chairs out here" (laughs)
>> Ian: And then I started helping out, figuring out who was on the February list. You know, this person sent in something so do we want to have them spend time. So I became more heavily involved in actually planning the reading series because believe it or not with reading series you don't just show up and do. And I became an artist to not do meetings and stuff so I really misjudged this
>> Brian: (laughs) It's art. I want to think it's a product of our era but I don't know. Everyone says that Dickens had to promote his shit too so who know
>> Ian: It's true. I think there's a lot of great artists out there who don't have the follow through to actually get their stuff out there
>> Brian: You're looking at one of them. Without this lady sitting to my left, I would be completely fucked and writing into a void in my parents basement. Masterbating too much, smoking too much weed, and eating a lot of oreos. Probably doing all of things that my dad would have done if he wasn't a piece of shit, but he's not (laughter)
>> Ian: Well at least you're out of the basement (laughter)
>> Brian: He's basically (laughter)... that's a euphemism for "it seems like you've crawled out and now what will you do?" (laughter)
>> Ian: Brian looks very nice.
>> Brian: (laughs) I just haven't shaved in a few days. Hey, I'm wearing clothes my mom bought me for the holidays
>> Ian: There you go. It looks nice, she's got a good eye
>> Brian: I'm kind of a pupil of the rich people who have taken me under their wing (laughter)
>> Ian: I need to find rich folk
>> Brian: Yeah
>> Ian: No, I feel like a low class person. I read recently that people can tell whether you're poor or rich based on your face. Like the study that they recently did. I think I definitely have a poor face (laughter). Like people can just smell it on me. Like I went to the store to get my wife's Christmas present and I could not get helped. I was in the jewelry store and everyone was like "mhm"
>> Brian: Oh dear
>> Ian: And I was like "eh, I think I just look like a poor person". I mean it's fine.
>> Brian: Classist pieces of shit
>> Ian: I watch wrestling
>> Brian: That's great. Was it you that was saying that wrestling is the modern form of Shakespeare.
>> Ian: It is
>> Brian: It is? You were the one who said that, ok
>> Ian: And I have to give credit to Anthony Mall who hosts our podcast. He and I have talked about this a lot so it's more of his theory than it is mine.
>> Brian: So he read for Animal Riot as well?
>> Ian: Yeah
>> Brian: No? No, I'm wrong?
>> Ian: Oh he will
>> Brian: Oh he's going to. I'm sorry
>> Ian: Yeah, he has a memoir "Out of Step". It's really good
>> Brian: Oh nice, with who?
>> Ian: Ohio State University Press. He won their contest
>> Brian: Oh cool
>> Ian: And his memoir is really cool. Yeah, it's as much his theory as mine. But they perform in the round and it's low brow. Because Shakespeare was lowbrow for the most part.
>> Brian: Yeah, the pit crowd. They were just jeering at them the whole time. They were like "fuck you" (laughter)
>> Ian: Yeah, and now it's a struggle to get high schoolers to read it because it's like...
>> Brian: Men dress like women and stuff
>> Ian: Which happens in wrestling (laughs. There's costumes, sure. I'm sure wrestlers had a codpiece at some point
>> Brian: Oh yeah. And now we celebrate it. I mean jock strap, codpiece, what's the difference.
>> Ian: Right, like the career of HHH is going to be a book that high schoolers are going to dread reading in like 200 years or whatever (laughter). "I can't believe I have to read 'The Pedigree' the story of HHH. This is just so high brow, I can't stand it" (laughter)
>> Brian: Yeah. Man maybe that is something about us. Everybody back then in Elizabethan if they time travelled, they would be like "why the fuck are you reading this shit. We had some dude out here that was actually writing some shit". We gotta get him in contact with Racks who just read with Animal Riot. Her latest book of poems is called "The People's Elbow."
>> Ian: Yeah, I'm in
>> Brian: Yeah, you gotta check it out
>> Ian: You had me at "The People's Elbow"
>> Brian: Yeah, and I confronted her about where Stone Cold Steve Austin in her poems. I was very upset because he was my man when I was growing up
>> Ian: Oh.
>> Brian: I was never a huge wrestling fan
>> Ian: Yeah but 1998 everybody had some idea of what wrestling was
>> Brian: Yeah, exactly. Was it bigger back in the late 90s?
>> Ian: It was. I can do the whole history of wrestling if you want
>> Brian: Mm, absolutely
>> Ian: Oh, yeah?
>> Brian: And I can juxtapose it with Kobe Bryant's career to see when we... (laughs)
>> Ian: Ok, alright. So I'm starting off in the 50s (laughter). No, but wrestling was very regional and then there was one person by the name of Vincent K McMahon who had the idea to make it national. So he owned the New York territory, which was WWF. I think it was WWF at one point? I'm seriously going to do the whole history of wrestling by the way (laughter). You can just do interloop music and cut to the end
>> Brian: Yeah, sure. We can do whatever we want with this so just go with it. It's fine
>> Ian: And then he made it national in part because of Andre the Giant. He was a national draw. So that made it more national.
>> Brian: Little Wayne references Andre the Giant. In "On One" with Drake and DJ Khaled
>> Ian: Yeah, rappers love wrestling. A lot of Rick Flare references too. A lot of "woos"
>> Brian: Yeah
>> Ian: Yeah, rappers like wrestling. Wale had a whole thing about wrestling.
>> Brian: DC
>> Ian: DC rap. And where was I?
>> Brian: The history
>> Ian: Oh we were talking about the history of wrestling. So then there was a startup on the Turner Network, WCW, which was going against the WWF.
>> Brian: When are we right now?
>> Ian: Oh so let me talk about the dark period of wrestling
>> Brian: Oh beautiful. Kobe Bryant is still in middle school at this point. Wait early 90s is 8th or 9th grade depending on when we are talking about.
>> Ian: Is he back stateside? Was he in Philly yet?
>> Brian: I don't know. He grew up in Italy. He speaks fluent Italian, by the way.
>> Ian: Yeah and he went to high school in Philly I believe
>> Brian: This somehow turned into a wrestling / Kobe Bryant fanboy podcast (laughter)
>> Ian: Yeah, yeah. Books are done. If you came here for books and literature then turn it off now. (laughter)
>> Brian: We just inadvertently proved that we are fucked as an industry.
>> Ian: Yeah, we can't even talk about books the entire time. Now we're talking about wrestling. Yeah, so the early 90's wrestling was basically everybody's gimmick was that "I have a job".
>> Brian: Like I'm the cable guy?
>> Ian: Yeah, like "I'm a garbage man" and "I'm a cop". And it's like "I don't think the cop is going to get along".
>> Brian: It's like the YMCA of wrestling (laughs)
>> Ian: Well there was a guy who was dressed as a Native American even though he wasn't a Native American. So basically that's the YMCA. We had a construction worker
>> Brian: Right, we have all of our bases covered
>> Ian: Shawn Michaels was wearing a lot of leather so he's basically the uh... was he a biker?
>> Brian: A meth head probably (laughs)
>> Ian: Yeah, he's basically the meth head. So that was like the dark period where everyone has a job. Then WCW started up which was owned by Ted Turner and Turner Broadcasting
>> Brian: These are names I know but did not know were associated with wrestling
>> Ian: Yeah. And what WCW started doing was throwing money at all of the big people from WWF at that time to bring them over to WCW.
>> Brian: So we are getting out of the dark ages?
>> Ian: This is where we start to turnover. So they are starting to throw a lot of money at the WWF guys and they start getting them all so WWF doesn't really have anyone of note because they have all been bought out. But it starts with what's known as the Monday Wars
>> Brian: Competing with Monday Night Football?
>> Ian: Well Monday Night Raw...
>> Brian: Raw! Yeah, I remember Raw
>> Ian: Yeah. And Nitro for WCW was on Monday night.
>> Brian: And Nitro, was that the name of the first N64 game for wrestling?
>> Ian: Oh yeah probably
>> Brian: Yeah, Nitro right? Maybe I'm wrong
>> Ian: No, that sounds right
>> Brian: That was like my favorite game that I played with my cousin in Jersey.
>> Ian: Yeah. And so that started Monday Night Wars. And then they started competing and when they started to do that they started to get more and more risque. Because it used to be for kids, right? And then it started to get more and more risque and more and more for adults. And that's when they hit the peak of wrestling power, in 1998.
>> Brian: Oh 1998, we are in the 2nd or 3rd year of Kobe Bryant's career. So he's like a starter at this point
>> Ian: Yeah, did he have any titles yet
>> Brian: No, they won their first in 2000. Shaq came on, I think in 1998. So yeah, that's where we are at.
>> Ian: So you're like a big Kobe fanboy?
>> Brian: I was. So Kobe was my man and now Steph Curry is my man. I loved Steph since he was in Davidson, by the way. Not a bandwagon fan, I knew he was going to be a hall-of-famer.
>> Ian: Steph's unimpeachable. And a nice guy. From all accounts. God I say that and someone listens to this later and we find out he's a terrible person. Not saying that's what's happening but...
>> Brian: I don't know if you heard about this but he recently said that moon landing was faked.
>> Ian: Yeah
>> Brian: And then he said it was a joke. We don't know if it was a joke
>> Ian: It wasn't a joke. I'm sure it wasn't
>> Brian: Because like Kyrie Irving said the Earth was flat and kind of held to it for a bit and then retracted it and said like it was kind of a joke
>> Ian: Yeah
>> Brian: It's like whatever. He can shoot really well, he can dribble really well, he can pass really well, he's got the greatest vision since Magic Jackson. I'll give him a pass on faking the moon landing
>> Ian: If his greatest sin is that he thinks the moon landing is faked then I can live with that.
>> Brian: Yeah, he's not killing people
>> Ian: Have you ever seen his pregame warmups?
>> Brian: Oh I know. Like shooting behind the sidelines, in the stands?
>> Ian: He does it from the tunnel?
>> Brian: Yeah from the tunnel. Unbelievable. And he hits it like half the time
>> Ian: So what, he thinks the moon landing was faked.
>> Brian: But what I found was interesting... Let's bring this back to a modicum of critical thinking.
>> Ian: Oh sure
>> Brian: I didn't understand how everyone freaked out about that like "oh my God he thought it was faked". I mean we have conspiracy theorists for everything. It's almost like acceptance if you think 9/11 was an inside job. Almost but not really. But people aren't going to go "oh oh oh".
>> Ian: But sure, a lot of people think that JFK wasn't assassinated
>> Brian: Yeah, same thing, right. And everyone freaks out about that. But nobody freaks that he thinks Jesus Christ is his Lord and Savior. And half the population doesn't think that's true. But that's fine, we accept that. It's kind of weird. It seems a little fishy to me. It's like when did we think it's ok to believe in something that's probably not true
>> Ian: Yeah, religion gets a pass on conspiracy theories
>> Brian: It does, it does. And it's not considered a conspiracy. It's just accepted in the zeitgeist. Into the rolling zeitgeist
>> Ian: There was something I picked up I picked up in the ether. It's a quote and I can't remember who said it but the difference between a cult and a religion is a couple hundred years (laughter). Like that's kind of true a little bit. Christianity was considered a cult at first. Whether you believe it was true or not, it was considered a cult at first
>> Brian: Oh yeah, they are always going to knock the Jews until (laughs)
>> Ian: Yeah, there's all kinds of conspiracy theories. Have you guys spent anytime on Reddit?
>> Brian: Yeah, let me just prelude that with saying that we were talking earlier about how Katie is getting involved on Reddit to promote Animal Riot and everything. And it's somewhat of a cesspool but I think it's the most honest forum maybe on the planet Earth
>> Ian: Well, honest is an interesting question
>> Brian: In terms of humanity
>> Ian: Like the good and the bad, you mean?
>> Brian: Yeah, like you aren't going to see that kind of unfiltered dialog or simulated dialog or whatever goes on Reddit
>> Ian: Yeah. Like I used to spend a lot of time on 4Chan which is like Reddit x1000. Like it's all anonymous.
>> Brian: I have never heard of this. 4Chan
>> Ian: Oh you don't know about 4Chan?
>> Brian: No
>> Ian: Most of your favorite things on the internet and the most horrible things on the internet has started on 4Chan
>> Brian: Is this another iteration of EbaumsWorld or something? Because that's where I saw things like Mr. Hands and shit like that (laughs)
>> Ian: Funny thing about Mr. Hands
>> Brian: We're going to refrain from...
>> Ian: We'll cut that
>> Brian: No, we can keep it. But we are going to refrain from describing it
>> Ian: Yeah I kind of had to describe what that was to my mom over Christmas
>> Brian: (laughs) In like euphemistic terms somehow?
>> Ian: No, I told her exactly what it was. I was like "in Oregon" some things aren't illegal
>> Brian: No, I think it was Washington
>> Ian: Oh ok, in Washington, some things aren't illegal (laughter)
>> Brian: And some people take advantage of those things... bestiality
>> Ian: Yeah, so 4Chan, people are terrible there. If you can be completely anonymous, which is what 4Chan is about, is that the most honest thing?
>> Brian: Probably
>> Ian: If I'm never going to get in trouble for what I say
>> Brian: Or are you going to go further
>> Ian: Yeah, are you going for a shock factor where you have to one up yourself every time? Like I don't actually believe this but I'm going to say it to elicit response.
>> Brian: Yeah
>> Ian: Which is kind of where we are as a society now. Like I don't believe half the shit people say on the internet. I think it's just to get a response
>> Brian: Oh yeah, I think that's clear. Definitely
>> Ian: And it's kind of seeped into everything else in culture including politics
>> Brian: Which is why Donald Trump is our president
>> Ian: Which brings me back to the Monday Night Wars
>> Brian: (laughs) He's been on wrestling before
>> Ian: Oh yeah, he's in the WWE hall of fame
>> Brian: This apropos, that's not some frivolous transition
>> Ian: By the way, if by some miracle he hears this, you took the worst stunner in the history of stunners. And there's been a lot of bad stunners taken (laughter). There's going to be like 6 people that get that. Like "yeah", "good one"
>> Brian: What is that? Is that a segment of Raw or something?
>> Ian: The Stone Cold Stunner
>> Brian: Oh yeah, ok
>> Ian: Stone Cold stunned Donald Trump and he looked like he, I don't even know, it was like a fish on the dock that was also getting electrocuted. He oversold it but also didn't take it very well. It's bad. Look it up on Youtube people
>> Brian: Yeah, he doesn't take many things very well. He doesn't take life very well, to be quite frank (laughter). Ok let's talk about ICP, Insane Clown Posse.
>> Ian: Which is actually a good transition from wrestling
>> Brian: I think so too. I think it's taking it up a notch on the absurdity scale.
>> Ian: Yeah, they have their own wrestling federation, ICP. Yeah, there's an Insane Clown Posse like, federation.
>> Brian: Interesting
>> Ian: They get a lot of the old heads from WWE's heyday. But I was telling Katie and Brian in an email that this was my conspiracy theory that the Insane Clown Posse might actually be geniuses pretending to be dumb
>> Brian: Mmm, I think a lot of people do that
>> Ian: Yeah, they've sold millions of records. They have The Gathering which is a big festival every year for Juggalos and Juggalettes. And they're millionaires. They've made movies and stuff too. They're millionaires. They kind of run a small media empire and they've done it with no radio play and no press.
>> Brian: Wow
>> Ian: Major publications will not talk about Insane Clown Posse unless it's in the negative. And they've built all of this by basically word-of-mouth and creating a small following that has grown. I don't think you can be dumb and do that
>> Brian: Yeah. Unless you are insanely lucky
>> Ian: That's a possibility
>> Brian: But I don't know if I believe in coincidences like that. So Katie's best friend down in Little Rock, Myriah, her brother, he's a juggalo
>> Ian: Woo woo
>> Brian: Are you?
>> Ian: Oh no. God no. I would never...
>> Brian: Do you like their music?
>> Ian: No, it's terrible music
>> Brian: But you're enamored by them?
>> Ian: Yes
>> Brian: Ok, I can understand that. I am enamored by addiction. I don't want to be addicted to drugs but I'm enamored by it
>> Ian: I love serial killers. I'm not a big fan of their work but I think they're fascinating. Like I want to know everything there is to know about serial killers
>> Brian: (laughs) Ah see, he understands. Like when I'm sitting there watching different angles of 9/11 hit shots and it's like "why are you enveloping yourself in this darkness"? You gotta sometimes.
>> Ian: Yeah
>> Brian: You gotta try and understand what could bring someone to do something like this
>> Ian: Right? And there's always that point where it's no I can't. Like, that's not me. And it's so weird...
>> Brian: It's for the better (laughs)
>> Ian: Yeah, I mean I would agree. But you can understand to a certain point and then there's that threshold where it's like "no, I ain't about this. Like I can't figure out why you would do this". And I'm talking about being an Insane Clown Posse fan, not a serial killer
>> Brian: Yeah, right
>> Ian: But I want a major publication to pay me to go to The Gathering. Like I don't want to spend money on it.
>> Brian: Oh like a David Foster Wallace sort of commissioning where you are going to the main lobster festival.
>> Ian: Yeah, exactly. If someone paid me to go there and write about it
>> Brian: And then they think you're going to write some glowing review of ICP but it's going to be very objective
>> Ian: Yeah, I'm just going to like gonzo journalism
>> Brian: (laughs) Yeah I think we talked about that in the first episode, some gonzo journalism. We were talking about the beats and how he was the only good one (laughter)
>> Ian: So Insane Clown Posse... oh here's why I also think they're geniuses. Are you guys familiar with their music at all?
>> Brian: Not at all. I think Katie may have shown me one song. It may not have even been her...
>> Ian: Miracle? Miracle?
>> Brian: Miracle? You showed me?
>> Ian: Magnets, how the fuck do those work?
>> Brian: (laughs) That is it! You showed me the video
>> Ian: There's now scientists that go to The Gathering or outside of ICP concerts to show juggalos how magnets work. Like they set up booths
>> Brian: I almost respect them less
>> Ian: Don't pick on juggalos
>> Brian: Not even that. Like you do realize that these people don't want to be taught how magnets work
>> Ian: Or they know how magnets fucking work and they're fucking trolling you
>> Brian: Well the band is. Right. But the juggalos themselves are like "yeah man, so how do those work" (laughs)
>> Ian: That is a miracle. Long ass giraffes and what not
>> Brian: That's the illuminati
>> Ian: Ok so they have their CDs right? The dark carnival. Are you familiar with the dark carnival?
>> Brian: No. I want to be
>> Ian: The dark carnival is a metaphor. And the metaphor is basically for life. But they would have these... and I'm going to blank on this term... they would have these cards. I think they were called the joker cards? Yeah, they're the joker cards. So they would have regular albums but every once in awhile one of their albums would be a joker card which means that it was a special album that was going to reveal more about Insane Clown Posse, the dark carnival, and life itself
>> Brian: Oh no
>> Ian: So they said, and I think it was the 7th joker card...
>> Brian: So joker cards are an interspersed album?
>> Ian: Yeah, not all of the albums are joker cards
>> Brian: If they have 7 of those then how many albums do they have?
>> Ian: I literally don't listen to their music so I don't know
>> Brian: These people are just... prolific
>> Ian: Yeah. They do everything out of their house basically. They have a home studio that they use to record everything
>> Brian: Do you think they wear their clown stuff while they're in their studio?
>> Ian: I think if they're going to be in the media's eye then they're going to wear their makeup.
>> Brian: Yeah, gotta keep it real
>> Ian: Yeah. So they said on their 7th joker card that the truth would be revealed. And do you know what the 7th joker card was?
>> Brian: Huh?
>> Ian: It was all about Christianity. So they said being in the Insane Clown Posse was actually all about Christianity the entire time
>> Brian: Oh my God. That is a scandal
>> Ian: They are fucking geniuses. I think they are brilliant. Like Andy Kaufman level of hilarious geniuses.
>> Brian: Uh huh
>> Ian: Nobody else believes me on this and that's totally ok. Both of you have sceptical looks on your faces right now (laughs)
>> Brian: No, I thought my eyebrows were raised in deep interest. But anyway... (laughs)
>> Ian: So I have decided that they know exactly what they are doing. They are actually probably really smart guys. And I love them like I love serial killers (laughter)
>> Brian: (laughs) Did you listen to the 7th joker card?
>> Ian: No, I've listened to 2 songs by them
>> Brian: So you don't know the reasoning was on how they revealed it? I like, now have to listen to this
>> Ian: There was a song that said it was all about Christianity. That Jesus is the answer
>> Brian: Wow. So are they religious?
>> Ian: I don't know that they are anything. But they're also really big fans of wrestling and old school wrestling.
>> Brian: Here it is. This is literature everyone
>> Ian: Yeah, we're bringing it back
>> Brian: We're bringing it back. This is like an MFA story where we have the first paragraph, break to the past, and we're coming back
>> Ian: That's all my stories. (laughter) That's like every story I have ever wrote
>> Brian: 7th joker card. Oh my God
>> Ian: Yeah. Insane Clown Posse. Secretly geniuses. That's all I have to say
>> Brian: The 7th joker was when?
>> Ian: Ohhhh, mid-aughts I think?
>> Brian: Ok. That's a long time ago
>> Ian: Yeah
>> Brian: That's a very long time ago
>> Ian: Yeah. They're still putting out music. They're still doing tours. They have their own label. They created a new genre of music so there are other artists that do Insane Clown Posse type music that they put out on... I think Hatchet Man Records. So they created a whole sub-genre that they're getting all of the money for and they have a dedicated base that buys all of those albums
>> Brian: So they are serial killers. Hatchet Man Records
>> Ian: Yeah. Culture
>> Brian: Wow. Wow. Amazing. How the literary community emulates... oh my God, I can't believe I'm going to say this. My hand is over my eyes. How would the literary community emulate Insane Clown Posse's record label that's called Hatchet Man Jobs? (laughs)
>> Ian: Brian, great question. I'm glad you asked (laughter). I think we should all emulate the Insane Clown Posse. They control all of the means of distribution for their work.
>> Brian: Which is great. I will admit that is great
>> Ian: They've created a little monopoly for their genre of music. Be hyper specific and then control all of that.
>> Brian: You know what? It's very true. It's literally what I was saying about how indie presses need to start taking over literary fiction and non-fiction, poetry, all of that stuff
>> Ian: Yeah
>> Brian: It's true. You know, the genre is a little different
>> Ian: Right. I mean a little, not everything
>> Brian: A little? I mean you did just equate ICP to Shakespeare so maybe not that different (laughs)
>> Ian: Well to be fair I equated Shakespeare to wrestling and I equated wrestling to Insane Clown Posse. So by the transitive property
>> Brian: (laughs) Yes, yes yes. The ol transitive property never fails
>> Ian: Basically Violent J and... Violent J... what are their names?
>> Brian: Who?
>> Ian: The Insane Clown Posse
>> Brian: Oh well how the fuck would I know? You're the... you know
>> Ian: Yeah but I'm on my third beer
>> Brian: Yeah, let's look. Are we looking at their members?
>> Ian: Yeah. It's Violent J and...
>> Brian: Insane Clown Posse. My IP address is going to be forever corrupted by this search (laughs). I am absolutely shocked by what I am looking at right now.
>> Ian: Woop woop
>> Brian: Their website, I cannot describe it. You have to see it for yourself. Big ballas. Christmas at our house. Lots of gang signs. They got bling. They're kind of like rappers
>> Ian: Oh they are rappers
>> Brian: But lik with clown faces on. Alright let's go back and do a wikipedia thing real quick. Yeah Violent J.
>> Ian: Violent J
>> Brian: Oh they are an American hip hop duo.
>> Ian: Yeah
>> Brian: I always thought of them as like a...
>> Ian: Supernatural and horror themed lyrics. Violent J and Shaggy 2 Dope. How could I forget Shaggy 2 Dope? Where was I?
>> Brian: It's just those two?
>> Ian: Yeah. It's a posse of two
>> Brian: I remember seeing a song but I didn't realize that this was hip-hop. I thought it was some sort of metal thing going on
>> Ian: Mmmm well they are horror themed hip-hop.
>> Brian: Horror-themed hip-hop. Ok. Everyday is Halloween
>> Ian: Yes. Woop woop. Do you know woop woop?
>> Brian: No
>> Ian: That's how one juggalo calls another. Woop woop. Then you go woop woop. Alright ready? Let's try
>> Brian: Woop woop. So what do we do after that?
>> Ian: Family, family. Then you chant "family, family".
>> Brian: "Family, family". I think we just got initiated (laughs)
>> Ian: That's being a juggalo.
>> Brian: (laughs) I'm going to stick to Outkast when we see the cops. We're like "hoody hoo" (laughter). Oh my God. I feel like I just took a drug that I've never taken before (laughs)
>> Ian: Yeah. I can see you a week from now into the 8th album like "it's all starting to make sense here" and become a juggalo
>> Brian: (laughs) Oh my God. Katie would divorce me. Alright, how the fuck do we tie this back into what we do with our lives (laughs)
>> Ian: I don't know. I think how they did it is that they tapped into something that people love. And if you find something that people love and put it out into the world then those people are going to find it. If you're really into ICP kind of music, there's not a lot of avenues so you're going to look for that thing and you're going to find it. So again, I think it comes back to putting out good content that you love
>> Brian: Here's my question though because we were talking about how the literary industry is emulating the music industry. Like indie labels that started with music. I mean, you had the presses like Coffee House and Two Dollar Radio and shit like that. But they were few and far between compared to like... as soon as Jay-Z is like "I'm going to start the Roc" and Kanye is like on there and like "fuck it I'm going to start my own" and then everyone's doing their own. That happens so fast. How do you get people to love a brand of literature? It just feels so much harder
>> Ian: Yeah. And also be diverse, right?
>> Brian: There's like a temporal... It's like a prohibitive time-based. You have to read a whole book and then decide "ok I'm into this author" or "this press"
>> Ian: Yeah. Do you find yourself into presses?
>> Brian: I do. Coffee House. Coffee House I'm really into.
>> Ian: Yeah. I do too. Where it's like if they put out something then I want to read it.
>> Brian: I can tell you that my two favorite books last year were "Stephen Florida" and "In the Distance". Fucking phenomenal
>> Ian: Both by Coffee House?
>> Brian: Yeah. Both by Coffee House Press. Gabe Habash and Herman Diaz. And both read at Animal Riot and they are great. But I guess they did it. But they've been around for a long time. Coffee House has been around since the 80s? Maybe the 90s. It's been awhile. It's surprising. We'll have to fact check that, I might be completely wrong. But other than that... I was at a meeting, a real estate meeting, the other day because my dad is looking to buy some property or something. And these people were asking me about what I was doing with my life so I told them "oh we're starting our own press" and shit like that. And they were like "oh people still read books"? And I was like "what the fuck"
>> Ian: I feel like we're selling to artists. Artists are selling to other artists, sometimes?
>> Brian: Yeah, I definitely feel like we are in an echo chamber sometimes
>> Ian: Yeah, like if you really like what we are doing then you're probably doing this yourself
>> Brian: And I think those shackles need to be busted
>> Ian: Yeah, that's something I totally agree with. Because I don't want to take money from other artists, right?
>> Brian: Because people want to read. There's no technology that's going to supplant literature. It's not possible until we get like direct neuronal transmissions and subvert the human experience. But we are long way from that
>> Ian: Like weeks
>> Brian: (laughs) At least
>> Ian: Jeff Bezos is working on it, don't worry
>> Brian: Yeah he is. Actually, I could say some things about that but we will save that for another day. But yeah, you can't teach people empathy and existential understanding and critical thinking in any way except for literature. You can't. Math is the only other way that I can think of. Math is like a logical paradigm where you can start to understand things deeply. But literature is the only other way that I know.
>> Ian: Math and science is very exact. There's a right and a wrong answer.
>> Brian: Which is not the human condition
>> Ian: Which is not the human condition, right. Whereas literature covers all the other things. Math and science have "this is right and this is wrong"
>> Brian: And literature you have to be logical and emotional because you can't write a book and not be logical. You have to connect the dots
>> Ian: Yeah you can't just jump around and it doesn't make any sense. And then you're out of it emotionally because it doesn't make any sense
>> Brian: Right
>> Ian: I think there's more logic than necessarily emotional if that makes sense. Like let's take you on this journey and you'll have the emotions as we go but if you don't have the tent poles of the story structure then that emotion is not going to happen
>> Brian: Yeah, then it's unhinged.
>> Ian: Yeah. Oh wait, I just described poetry (laughs). It's just poetry, right?
>> Brian: That's amazing. I love that he just said that. Katie knows that I kind of joke, I half joke that poetry is bullshit
>> Ian: Oh it's totally bullshit. I love it. It's my favorite
>> Brian: That's the thing. There are poems that I love but I do feel like poetry, because it's such a short form, that's a doorway for charlatans. Because it's like subconsciously, "oh I don't have to try as hard because I don't have to write something that like"...
>> Ian: Are you talking about writers or readers?
>> Brian: Well both. But mainly writers. I'm talking about mainly writers. Like there's so much shit out there.
>> Ian: I mean, yeah. There's shit for everything though, right?
>> Brian: I totally admit that the proportion of shit in poetry equals the proportion of shit in fiction and non-fiction.
>> Ian: Yeah
>> Brian: But for some reason, and I could be completely biased, but it's so much more glaring to me. Because poetry is like "you're really going to stand there and talk in that voice and act like I'm feeling something right now?"
>> Ian: You're talking about poet voice? You're talking about poet voice?
>> Brian: (laughs) Yes, yes.
>> Ian: I can't write a poem. I can't write a poem to save my life. Like I can write a short story but I can't write a poem. Like it's not in my DNA, I don't know how you do it
>> Brian: Uh huh. Is it like a rhythm thing?
>> Ian: No, I don't understand... I like poetry and I like reading poetry but I don't necessarily understand what makes a poem. It's like pornography I guess. You'll know it when you see it?
>> Brian: Can I tell you something that piggybacks off of what you said?
>> Ian: Yeah
>> Brian: I was invited to NYC PoeFest and I don't even write poetry and I literally took prose, kind of from my novel and other stuff, and I just broke it into lines. And I get up there and just read it. And everyone's just like golf-clapping afterwards (laughs).
>> Ian: Ah
>> Brian: It was so strange (laughs). Alright let's wrap this up. What else can we say? What else? Is there anything else? Should we just stop? I don't know. Is there anything else you want to say? I think we're good
>> Ian: No, I got everything I wanted to talk about out (laughs)
>> Brian: Yeah
>> Narration: This episode is brought to you by Animal Riot featuring Ian Anderson and produced by Katie Rainey, without whom we’d be merely two of Shakespeare’s thousand monkeys banging on a typewriter.