Episode 37: Read It Forward

October 10th, 2019
Hosted by Brian Birnbaum
Guests: Abbe Wright
Produced by Katie Rainey
Transcript by Jon Kay
Podcast Assistant: Dylan Thomas

We're back this week with this awesome episode featuring our special guest, Abbe Wright, Senior Editor of Read It Forward from Penguin Random House! RiF is where you go for reading lists, literary lifestyles, new books, and all things wordy. Abbe has a resume that's got us awestruck. Abbe has written for Glamour, The Cut, Metro, O, The Oprah Magazine, Modern Bride and Philadelphia Magazine about books, culture, career, food, beauty, weddings, fashion and everything in between. No. Big. Deal. On this episode she talks with us about all this, her memoir-in-progress, and shares from an essay she wrote for The Cut, "I Wanted to Break Up. Then He Got a Tattoo of My Name."

You can find more of Abbe's work here:

>> Brian: Welcome to the 37th episode of the Animal Riot Podcast brought to you by Animal Riot Press, a literary press for books that matter. I'm your host, Brian Birnbaum. I'm here today with Abbe Wright who's the senior editor of Read it Forward, which we'll talk about in a minute. But Read It Forward.... I love this... Read it Forward is a publisher agnostic book vertical that helps readers discover exciting new books and classic reads, which is a clusterfuck of like, millennial buzzwords. Or like, you know, yeah, I love that. I need that explained to me as a Luddite. Prior to her position at Read It forward, Abbe was a contributing editor at Glamour, where she held the magazine's 2015 College Women of the Year competition and an assistant editor at O, which we all know is the Oprah Magazine. Holy shit. Where she contributed to the "reading room" and "live your best life" sections and... yeah, more millennial shit... and sections and worked on Oprah's Book Club 2.0, which I actually wasn't aware of. A lot of things that I need explained to me. She has also written for the Cut, Metro, Modern Bride, Elegant Bride and Philadelphia magazine. Any relation between Modern Bride and Elegant Bride?


>> Abbe: Yeah.


>> Brian: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, we'll get into that, too. She earned a BA in English from Denison University in Granville, Ohio. She was raised outside Philadelphia and lives in Brooklyn, New York...


>> Katie: And traveled all the way up here.


>> Brian: Yes, on the one. As ASAP Rocky would say, anything is better than that one train.


>> Abbe: I love the one train.


>> Brian: Um, today's brand of fuckery is brought to you by Abbe getting Emerald City on Oprah's book list, which will never happen. But I'm throwing it out there for all our listeners. Okay? Yeah. Hi, Abbe.


>> Abbe: Hi. I'm so glad to be here.


>> Brian: Yeah, we're really glad that you're here, and we're really glad that we have found a rapport so quickly.


>> Abbe: Totally. And in fact, I'm gonna bring you everywhere to just read that bio, cause you did it really well and dramatically.


>> Brian: Really? I felt like I fucked it up in a way that I really enjoyed it.


>> Katie: But I'm gonna cut out those pieces that you stuttered over, so it'll be fine.


>> Brian: Not the little color commentary.


>> Katie: No


>> Brian: That's crucial. Thank you. Thank you. I'm like fucking Bob Costas over here. Uh, 97 finals. Okay. Anyway, that's just too esoteric. Let's start with Read it forward. Especially the publisher agnostic book vertical. Holy shit. What does that mean?


>> Abbe: Yeah. I like to think of Read it Forward as helping people find their next great read. Yes. So we are owned by Penguin, Random House and...


>> Brian: The Evil Empire.


>> Abbe: The largest book publishing company around.


>> Brian: Is Pantheon under them?


>> Katie: Yeah.


>> Brian: So Sergio's book was... I couldn't make it five minutes. It's a running joke that I bring up Sergio De La Pava.


>> Abbe: In 1st 30 minutes?


>> Brian: Yeah, we'll murder them one day. (laughter)


>> Katie: Ok


>> Brian: I mean, it's leading there, the one with the way I'm sounding. But yeah, his book Lost Empress was published with Pantheon. So I got love for them. Don't worry.


>> Abbe: So yeah, I get to help people find great books through editorial content, through social media. We have YouTube channel and I have a podcast.


>> Katie: A booktube?


>> Abbe: A booktube. Actually the Washington Post just called us one of 10 booktubes to watch.


>> Brian: Ohh


>> Katie: Catch my face on YouTube.


>> Brian: Our producers eyes are lighting up right now.


>> Katie: I'm just looking it up. I got deep into a booktube hole there in a minute. Just when I'm researching publicity.


>> Abbe: Yeah, and it's a lot.


>> Katie: I didn't even know it existed until I started doing publicity.


>> Abbe: Oh, yeah, Yeah. It's a real thing.


>> Brian: Katie wants to turn me into a booktuber.


>> Katie: You would be really good at it.


>> Abbe: You could add some needed color.


>> Brian: Really? Yeah, because like, I would definitely be that person just like lighting a cigarette and just being like, like, some rakish shit like that, you know?


>> Abbe: Yeah.


>> Brian: So publisher agnostic I get, that means we're non-biased.


>> Abbe: Yes, exactly.


>> Brian: Any books from any publisher?


>> Abbe: So that right used to be true. I mean, this is interesting. So Read It Forward when we were sort of in our nation, see, and starting out we really just wanted to build a community of readers. And we did. We covered books from all across publishing. Now, because I work now in corporate marketing for Penguin Random House, we just focus on P R H books.


>> Brian: Yeah, but there it is.


>> Abbe: Luckily, we have so many great ones to choose from that you know, we have tons of cookbooks and fiction and nonfiction, and so it never feels like, Oh, gosh, I'm really like I really wish I could cover this amazing thing because we do publish a lot of amazing things. Um, and it actually makes my life a lot easier. I used to get tons of packages from Harper Collins and Schuster. And so it cuts down on my mail, for sure. But sometimes that can be good to just have a finer focus. And actually what I found is the people outside the publishing world don't know who the publishers are. So the reader of Read It Forward really wants to know what are 10 books that remind me of A Man Called Ova or what's a memoir that's gonna make me cry. So we really organize lists around things that people are searching for. Like I'm going to do a list of audiobooks to listen to when you can't get to your therapist. (laughter) I haven't figured it out yet.


>> Brian: The Grapes of Wrath has to be on that, Because what's that movie where they're listening to it? This girl and her mom, we saw it together.


>> Abbe: And then she falling out of the car.


>> Brian: Yeah, right in the beginning.


>> Katie: Uh, yes. With Sarah Reese Ronan? Yes. Little bird. Baby bird.


>> Abbe: Ladybird way.


>> Katie: There you go. Something bird.


>> Brian: Fitzgerald said the sign of Gene of intelligence is holding two contradicting ideas, you know, in your head and the days that I'm feeling like a genius... I can love and hate the big houses at the same time. And like I do totally like respect the idea that Penguin's like you did. We got to do this. This is us.


>> Abbe: Exactly.


>> Katie: Are they the biggest?


>> Abbe: They are the biggest. When they merged with Random House six years ago, they became the biggest.


>> Brian: Yeah, and I just had a profile come out in Atticus today trashing the Big Five. But that's the thing in that same profile, like, I congratulate Sergio for getting published with Pantheon. You know, it's like because his publisher's badass. And so, you know, the world is full of contradictions. It's the way it is.


>> Abbe: Exactly. Exactly. And I think, like, you know, the more relationships we make across the words, it just helps people find awesome stuff to read.


>> Brian: Yes. And if so, if someone offered me a six figure deal at Pantheon, I take it, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And then I come back to Animal Riot and be like what you got for me (laughter)?


>> Katie: I built your career. Half that money is mine.


>> Brian: That would work. That would work on me. Yeah, but yeah, that's awesome. I really like that idea. So the booktube is separate from the podcast or separate from the podcast on YouTube?


>> Abbe: We do six recommendations called six picks. And that's, like, "six great books to give your mom" we did in May. And then we also have authors who come into the office all the time, and they tell us what they're reading.


>> Katie: So you just do a quick video?


>> Abbe: Yeah.


>> Brian: Six books to give your mom. That was one of the book tubes?


>> Abbe: I think so. Yeah. Six books for moms?


>> Brian: Is it like a Read It Forward booktube?


>> Abbe: Yeah. Read it Forward.


>> Brian: I want the six books to give my mom.


>> Abbe: Oh, there you go.


>> Brian: I just searched it. I'll have that for later.


>> Abbe: Nice. Good.


>> Brian: Joan Raciti will be very happy.


>> Abbe: I don't remember what's on it. So it'll be a surprise to all of us.


>> Brian: All the books that I recommend her. She's like, Why? Why would you give this to me? I got I got her for her birthday once The Recognitions by William Gaddis.


>> Katie: Oh god.


>> Brian: And I don't know if you know that book...


>> Abbe: No


>> Brian: She's like my eyes were falling... like I can't get the 1st 2 pages or just the density is just like... and Naked Singularity with a massive black hole.


>> Abbe: Yeah, yeah, we've got some lighthearted fiction for moms, so that's good.


>> Brian: Perfect. I barely made her proud with my novel.


>> Abbe: So I have this dream job. I get to read books and tell people about them, and it's kind of awesome. It's really fun. And I got to interview authors that's actually like my most favorite part of my job is talking to authors about their books and asking them what they're reading and what they hope readers take away from reading their book, which is always so interesting. I mean, some people are so humble, they're like, I don't care like just please, you know, really did. I'm so touched that you even picked it up and others, you know, have, like, the most poignant responses. And so it's really, really fun to get to, you know, talk books with people I am obsessed with.


>> Brian: Do you want to share the story real quick that you shared with us before we got on the air?


>> Abbe: Yeah, two years high interviewed Isabel Allende and this week, and she's got a new book coming in January called The Long Pedal of the Sea. And you know the book is incredible and actually looks at the Spanish Civil War in the late thirties and all of these refugees that had to leave Spain. And so there's a lot of comparison to today. So I was asking her about How did you feel when you won the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 2014? And how did it feel when President Obama put it around your neck? And she's like, Well, actually, to answer that I have to go back to 1992 when I was first becoming a citizen, and usually it's this huge celebration with thousands of people. But my daughter was dying at the time, and her daughter died at 29 of a brain infection. Really, really sad. And so she's like the judge gave me my citizenship privately in his chambers and said, you know, do good things, and you know, when I won this medal, which is the highest honor that a citizen could ever win in this country. I wrote to him and he's now long retired and I wrote, like, you know, you'll never believe I did good things. And then he wrote me back and said, Oh, I've been following your career like you make this country so proud and... I know I was just like, weeping tears were really just, like, falling noiselessly down my cheeks and she was unfazed by my tears. She's like, Yeah, I know I'm telling you an amazing story.


>> Brian: I'm pretty cool.


>> Abbe: Yeah, she was like, I'm not even gonna touch on President Obama. I'm gonna touch on this judge that changed my life. It was really, really cool.


>> Brian: Well, I'm not gonna lie, You know that. That's such a great moment. And I'm gonna completely ruin it. Because when it if someone had asked me, how did it feel when Obama put that around my neck, I would have been like, I'm glad it wasn't Trump (laughter).


>> Abbe: Totally. I would probably say the same thing.


>> Brian: Some low blow shit, but yeah, that's an amazing story. I wish I could have experienced that vicariously as well.


>> Abbe: Yeah, well, you'll be able to listen to it on my podcast. November. So our next season starts October 14th. This will trickle out in November and then her books coming in January.


>> Brian: So So I want to talk about how you got this job, but, like, let's backtrack because, as we mentioned, Holy shit, you worked at the O, the Oprah magazine and Book Club 2.0. I'm actually not familiar with that. I know about the book club.


>> Abbe: Basically in college, I went to a tiny college in Ohio, in Granville, as you so beautifully pronounced. Denison University, and I really I was like, I'm gonna get into magazines.


>> Brian: People usually say, like, Grainville or something?


>> Abbe: No, but.


>> Brian: But is it just my dulcet tones?


>> Abbe: Yeah. It was nice.


>> Brian: Yeah, that's why I'm hosting this bitch (laughs)


>> Abbe: And I'm like, I'm gonna get into magazines. I'm gonna be the editor in chief of 0 one day. So I interned at Teen Vogue. I interned in Philadelphia magazine, and then my first job out of college was at Modern Bride and Elegant Bride, which were two different magazines. But they were helmed by the same editor in chief. And I was her assistant. Elegant Bride was for the bride that had a lot of dough to spend. Modern Bride, there were some articles about how to make your flowers from the supermarket, so it was really, really spread out.


>> Katie: And we got a lot of weddings were coming up to, so we might need to point them to that and subscribe.


>> Abbe: Well, unfortunately, both of them folded.


>> Katie: Oh, really?


>> Abbe: 2009. That fateful day when, like, Gourmet closed all those magazines folded that one day.


>> Katie: Wait, Why that one day? I don't know about this.


>> Abbe: It was a real bloodbath and mold magazine land.


>> Brian: Is this like, Was this related to the financial crisis at all?


>> Abbe: Yes, it was. So the Financial Crisis was  2008. And this is now the trickle to October 22, 2009. We were brought into this office and Conde Nast closed, I think, four different magazines that day. Um, maybe five. Yeah. And so we were told, like, alright, you got 72 hours, you gotta be out of this office, and then you get back to your desk and you're like all this to do list. I was about to do that have to do. Any of the other two are like, that's crazy.


>> Brian: That's some Lehman Brothers shit. Get the fuck out.


>> Abbe: Why? Was it just they were hemorrhaging money, and so it was like, Stop the gap?


>> Abbe: Asked had three different bridal magazines. So they had Brides, Modern Bride and Elegant Bride. And literally, I worked there. I could barely tell you the difference between them. And so they're like, Let's just stick with Brides, which is the basic name. Whatever. And that'll be our one bridal magazine. And so that still exists now. They were like, we gotta cut the fat. So Modern and Elegant have got to go.


>> Katie: So they just booted you guys?


>> Abbe: Totally. So that day I was, like, nine in the morning on October 9th, And I got a call at, like, 11 from the woman who did PR for the magazine. And it was like you're an amazing assistant. My best friend needs an assistant, send me a resume, so her best friend turned out to be the creative director at the Oprah magazine, Adam Glassman. And so he is sort of the head of fashion and style at Oprah, which I thought I wanted to go into. And so I was his assistant for a year and 1/2 and pretty soon realized like I'm not really like a fashion person. I don't really wear heels. It was sort of like I was trying to fit my foot into issue that just didn't fit.


>> Katie: I don't know, you have pretty stylish shirt on.


>> Abbe: Thank you. I also have Birkenstocks on, so it's a little high low.


>> Katie: This is as fancy as it gets.


>> Brian: But that's some sartorial thought that, like, you know, I kind of just go into my closet and just grab pick out the first thing my mom bought for me when I'm still 31 years old. (laughs)


>> Abbe: But yes Oh, OK, I'll do it as a hobby, but like when you're in it, you really have to be in it. So they I said to the editor in Chief, like I believe in this magazine, I love it so much. I love the message, but I really I miss writing and I want to write for this magazine, and she was like, Well, there's a spot open in books. And so I transitioned over to the books department, and that was amazing. I mean, that really changed the trajectory of my life. I have always been a huge book nerd. I was an English lit major in college and the first book party I went to like after having gone to fashion parties, I was like, Oh, these are my people. This makes way more sense. Yeah. So that was sort of like this Major Exhale?


>> Brian: Yeah. I was gonna ask, How are you feeling  up to that point? Did you know you were working towards something like that, or were you kind of like just white knuckling this like, career?


>> Abbe: A little bit? Yeah. It was like I wanted it to fit and feel good. And I was sort of expecting, like, one day to be like, Oh, I get it. Like I wake up early. I straightened my hair. There was none of that. I was sort of all over the place, so finally I was like, Oh, okay. This feels like a comfy pair of pajamas that I just put on, and now I can like Kick Ass. And so the show, Oprah's show ended in 2011. Uh, and so right. She'd done the book club on the show for so many years. So Book club 2.0 was really us bringing it to the magazine for the first time.


>> Brian: Oh, so what happened to live on? So was there even original still? Or did that become the book club?


>> Abbe: It became the book club.


>> Brian: It became like an imprint of the show's book club?


>> Abbe: Exactly. And she didn't have the vehicle of the show to announce her picks anymore. But we would announce it through the magazine. And now I guess I mean, congrats to Oprah. She's probably now on book club like 3.0 because she's connecting it to Apple TV.


>> Katie: Oh, does she have a show on Apple TV?


>> Abbe: I think she will. Yeah, So her first pick is the Water Dancer by Ta-Nehisi Coates.


>> Katie: Wow, that is winning the lottery right there.


>> Brian: Yeah, yeah, for sure.


>> Abbe: And she's like tune into Apple TV on X and such a date and we'll chat about it.


>> Katie: Although I did just read an article in a pink box that said that Reese Witherspoon's book club is the number one and a big rival to the O book club. Apparently if your book gets announced on Reese's book club, you go from like... somebody went from less than 3000 books sold to over 1,000,000 in like, 48 hours or something.


>> Brian: What?


>> Katie: Yeah, it was nuts.


>> Abbe: It really is. I mean, the power of celebrity in that way is wild.


>> Katie: I love that all these celebrities do this.


>> Abbe: I do too, man.


>> Katie: Emma Roberts has her own book club.


>> Abbe: And now Jenna on the Good Morning America. Jenna Bush. She's got herself a stamp.


>> Katie: Hey, I'm, like, keep doing. I think it is great.


>> Brian: Well, yeah, also, because, they're keeping it alive, which is really important that you have people that are just on Netflix. Now, you know, exposing the fact that this is maybe not all they should be absorbing entertainment-wise.


>> Abbe: And like adding a book to the cultural zeitgeist is never a bad thing.


>> Katie: Yeah, I'm totally on board.


>> Brian: I have a question that, like, I think there's a 2% chance that we're going to like this is gonna be a thing, But did anyone ever talk about at Oprah... Did anyone ever talk about the Jonathan Franzen and, like, Apocalypse that basically went down?


>> Abbe: No. We never talked about that. And we never talked about James Frey. By the way, is a Denison Alum. So I got both fronts. James Frey apologizing.


>> Katie: Was it like a, we do not talk about this? If you know what's good for you, do not bring it up.


>> Abbe: Exactly. And Oprah actually was not really in the office so much. She's traveling. And so But she would come in periodically, and at which case like you could just feel the energy in the building, just like totally shift. Yeah, and she's awesome. I mean, once she came up by me and she just, like, grabbed this book off my desk and she was like, Oh, what are you reading? And I'm like, ug I think it's a story. I thought she was like, That sounds great. Just like sticks it under her arm and takes it.


>> Katie: She just takes your book?


>> Abbe: What page am I on? Keep that one. I think I probably mailed the publicist. I'm like, So Oprah grabbed my copy and they're like, We'll send you 100.


>> Brian: I don't know how to feel about that.


>> Katie: Just to wield that power where she's got a book. She just can change someone's life in, like, a matter of hours.


>> Abbe: I guess everything on this whole floor is yours, technically. So yeah, you keep that.


>> Brian: That's that's what I'm aiming for. Take whatever I want.


>> Katie: That's wild. Have you brought any of those ties over to Read It Forward?


>> Abbe: Yes. So, actually, when I was interviewing at Read It Forward. You know, at Oprah you got to know everyone in the book biz because they are sending you things in hopes of getting it featured in the pages of Oh, and so I made tons of friends and would go out for drinks and stuff with young publicists. And I was the books assistant, and so we all really liked grew up in publishing. And so then it Read It Forward. They were really looking for someone that had those connections first, while we were still publisher agnostic to sort of reach out and bring those connects over to the site. So, yeah, it was great. And then I actually was in the building with a bunch of my very good friends who had made, you know, a long time ago.


>> Brian: And now you are publisher monotheistic. Going back to the old ways.


>> Abbe: Exactly.


>> Katie: Wow. We feel like big timers having you on here.


>> Abbe: I'm glad to be here.


>> Brian: Yeah. This is like two in a row. So you worked at Oprah, and then you made the transition to Read it Forward?


>> Abbe: I had to stop a Glamour in the middle. So I was like, Do I love books or do I love magazines? Sort of after five or six years at O.


>> Brian: Well, you were doing, you were kind of doing both.


>> Abbe: Exactly. And so I wanted to see, like, where should my career take me? So I went to Glamour and worked there for a year, doing their top 10 college women competition, which, if you don't know, it started in the early sixties, and it was very much like shiniest hair like Becky's got the best outfits for the football game. And actually, Martha Stewart was a winner from Barnard in the early sixties.


>> Katie: Wow.


>> Abbe: And has this bouffant hair. D'oh! Love it like the striped Letterman's sweater and it has now, some 60 years later, been transformed into the most high achieving young women in college.


>> Brian: Less about appearance and more about depth?


>> Abbe: Exactly. And so women are like curing cancer. They're going to class, which I barely ever managed to do. They are starting nonprofits. They are writing, you know, plays starring queer characters. And so I got to profile these women and write about them in the magazine and then arrange all of the logistics for their photo shoot. And then they came to New York for the big award ceremony, and I arranged a celebrity panel. And so I was their den mother and the editor, and yeah, it was really, really fun. It was great. And I'm still in touch with, actually a bunch of them.


>> Katie: But you decided after that year, like now it's really books that I love?


>> Abbe: Yeah, I've really, really missed books. I sort of like I wanted to move to digital, you know, at at a magazine at a print magazine. They were like, we didn't sell the ad on the facing page and some we need you to cut 50 words. And so I was interested in moving to the Web where a word count is less of a big deal. Yeah, I saw this opportunity. Someone sent it to me actually. I'm in a minute. Google Group called Lit Babes and Maris Kreutzmann who sent the job posting to me and was like, I think this was actually made for you. So I owe the job all to Maris.


>> Katie: For Read it Forward?


>> Abbe: Yeah. So that was in May or June of 15 and I started in July at 15 and I've been there ever since.


>> Brian: I was about to say for our listeners, it probably sounds like you just walked into jobs, you know?


>> Abbe: I know. Like and then I moved Oprah. I did interview at all these places. I do a good interview. I fool them into.


>> Brian: Well, you earned them too.


>> Abbe: It wasn't just like, you know...


>> Katie: What's the interview secret?


>> Abbe: Just like, fake it till you make it. I think just like being bloated with confidence. Yeah, if you don't necessarily feel it, it's just like a just you exude it on, then their heads will be spinning by the time they figure out that you don't quite know what you're doing. But you're gonna figure it out. I got a job at Read It Forward, and I had never worked on web. I didn't know anything about WordPress. You know, I would ask the dumbest things in meetings. They would be like, Oh, you know, the SEO. And I'm like, now what is SEO, and someone was like Google it. And the first thing that comes up. So yeah, seriously, I learned on the job.


>> Brian: That's super meta. Yeah. That Google SEO. A house of mirrors right there.


>> Abbe: Yeah, but they knew that I had good taste in books. Yeah, and that I could talk to a brick wall and talk Thio. You know, our reader. And they hired me to really, like, reenvision the site and redesign it, you know, along with our developers and stuff. But yeah, I got to sort of revamp the voice and style of the site. So it definitely feels very much like my baby now.


>> Brian: And yet your personal site is under construction by a freelancer?


>> Abbe: Yes. So, yeah. I'm trying to make my personal site the coolest thing you've ever seen.


>> Brian: Okay. You don't trust yourself to do that?


>> Abbe: No, I don't.


>> Brian: And yet you were doing this for, like, big time organizations?


>> Abbe: Yes. You're spoiling my secrets. (laughter) The hardest part are articles that look good only on page when they get translated to oprah dot com or something. They look not as impressive. And the art's missing. And you know, so I want to be able to see them in the way they first appeared. And so, But then I want to be able to zoom in so you can actually read the words. But if you're listening to this other Brian, who's working on my website, then now consider this time to go to work because this Brian is calling us out now.


>> Brian: From one Brian do another.


>> Abbe: Exactly.


>> Katie: So if people are just checking out, say, the podcast for the first time, what's the episode you would direct them to?


>> Abbe: Oh my gosh, Yeah, well, I interviewed Amber Tamblyn, the actress, and she's also an activist, and she is cool. Sisterhood of the Traveling pants, one of my favorite movies. But she's really cool and talks all about, like the time's up movement in Hollywood, which she was a big part of starting and then really owns. You know, she's married to David Cross the actor, and he had like... a flub


>> Katie: Oh, I didn't know that.


>> Brian: I know that name David Cross.


>> Katie: Tobias. Arrested Development.


>> Abbe: They're married.


>> Brian: Oh. Holy shit. Tobias?


>> Katie: Yeah. You just don't picture David Cross being married to anyone. It's hard.


>> Abbe: Totally. So he put his foot in it with something he said in the media and got, like, over a little bit time's up and she talks about how it was, like, so interesting to watch her husband sort of trip and fall. And, so it's really an interesting sort of from the perspective of a woman in Hollywood.


>> Katie: I'll have to check that out.


>> Brian: That's Really interesting. Because it forces her to look like the kind of, like the provenance of, like, you know what happens here, like so, you know, which I think is, like, super important. Yeah, like, you know, I think it's so important to like these people that we demonize. It's like, Well, why is it happening? Because that's how you stop it.


>> Abbe: Yeah. Yeah. She is very cool in person and, like, knows her stuff. You know, sometimes you don't know if an actress is like just printing this manifesto without... but she is totally real.


>> Katie: Do you know where episode that is?


>> Abbe: I don't, but it's it's named Amber Tamblyn.


>> Katie: We have to listen to that.


>> Abbe: Yeah, and then another. Great. Why? I interviewed Delia Owens, who wrote the year's biggest book, Where the Crawdads Sing. And she's so cute. She's like this tiny old lady. And she talked about, you know, because she's actually an amazing biologist and studied like elephants in Africa and so has written two or maybe three books on elephants and like the African landscape. And I asked her about what was it like going from non-fiction to fiction? And she's like this Southern lady. And so she's like, Well, you know, picture riding horses.


>> Brian: The idioms are coming.


>> Abbe: Exactly. You're in a corral, your fenced in, But with fiction like the fences are broken and the horses gallop. And I was like, I love this.


>> Brian: That's great. That's pretty much it.


>> Katie: She's the one that Vox article mentioned skyrocketing from Reese's Book Club. Oh yeah, because it had sold like nothing full circle until Reese Witherspoon picked it out for the book club. And then it just like now it's on every list ever. Everyone's talking about that, but yeah, yeah, and it's quite good.


>> Abbe: I have to say your mom might like it.


>> Brian: There we go. And I mean, Where the Crawdads Sing, That's a Katie Rainey novel right there.


>> Katie: Yeah, that's a me title. Yeah, I do need to read it. I've been meaning to.


>> Abbe: Are you Southern?


>> Brian: A little bit.


>> Katie: Arkansas.


>> Abbe: Okay.


>> Brian: It comes out. She was a little girl hunting for crawdads.


>> Katie: Yeah, I was just writing about that.


>> Brian: The days of yore.


>> Abbe: Yeah, it's very good and very captivating, so yeah, definitely give it a read. But her interview was was awesome. And then coming in the next season, Neil Patrick Harris.


>> Katie: We saw that photo.


>> Abbe: So he's hilarious. You loved through these books for kids all about magic and like, being yourself and I read all three of them in one weekend, and they're real feel good story.


>> Katie: Yeah. How did that happen to you? Did you reach out to them or did they reach out to you?


>> Abbe: They reach out to me.


>> Katie: Fancy.


>> Abbe: I know. And it turns out a dear friend of mine was actually his nanny for a long time. So I'm like, you'll never guess who I'm interviewing. So that was fun. I brought that up at the very end. Oh, and guess who I know?


>> Katie: You're going to see a boost in listenership after that episode drops.


>> Abbe: Yeah, but he was very kind sweet. Yeah. So it's nice to be face to face with authors, and they've told me like they're like, Wow, you're really the eye contact is really something. I felt very on display.


>> Katie: Do people not normally make eye contact?


>> Abbe: Someone I interviewed the other day. Her eyes were everywhere else.


>> Katie: How funny.


>> Abbe: But other people were having a conversation.


>> Brian: Writers are fucking weird.


>> Abbe: Yeah, totally.


>> Brian: We're all fucking really weird.


>> Katie: What about your writing?


>> Abbe: So I write mostly nonfiction, memoir, personal essay genre. I think it would be very hard to write fiction.


>> Brian: It is.


>> Katie: Yeah, exactly.


>> Brian: But when horse busts down the gate, it's like, It's not just, like were galloping and, you know, cavorting gleefully. It's also like, Yeah, like, where the fuck am I?


>> Abbe: Yeah, exactly. I'm working on a memoir right now, actually Have about my dad. So my dad, he and I were super tight and he was diagnosed with cancer and 2011. And so I knew, you know, we had this sort of end point, and I was really fascinated with, like, what makes us the people we become? What do we get from our parents that turn us into these people? And so he and I spent a lot of time when he was sick. I would just interview him and, like, put a recorder in his front pocket and just ask him, like, you know, he was drafted to Vietnam, but was a conscientious objector. And so, like, you know, Dad, how did you know you didn't want to pick up a weapon against your fellow man? Like things I'd never asked before and suddenly, like with a deadline, we got to a lot of amazing stuff.


>> Katie: He was a conscientious objector?


>> Abbe: Yeah.


>> Brian: That's interesting. I published an essay and lit hub that I had worked on for, like it ended up being over a year. Even those like 5000 words. It was about Catch 22 excited family friend, whose grandfather there's a lot of evidence that he was the main inspiration for Yossarian.


>> Abbe: Whoa! Cool.


>> Brian: Yeah, it was really fun to work on. And it took a while to get published. But because I think there was an element of like, is this fucking really, like Are we gonna, like, get a libel suit or something? Like not liable, but like a more like, whatever, whatever.


>> Katie: So did your father get out of getting sent to Vietnam?


>> Abbe: He did. Yeah. He worked his ass off and finally went into the army as a medic and then worked really hard to be number one or number two in his class to avoid going to Vietnam. And so he was on a base in Kentucky and delivering babies as, like, a surgical tech.


>> Katie: Wow, that is a true stay in school kids. It'll get you out of war.


>> Abbe: Exactly. But other than you know, he never finished college. He was so self taught. So curious, Like a dinner. We would be talking about something the four of us, and he'd be like, Go grab the world book.


>> Brian: What What did he end up doing? Like for a living.


>> Abbe: He ended up. So he took that surgical technology, and then he was in sales for surgical devices, so he'd go into surgery and not touch the patient. But he'd say, Hey, Doc, you're gonna want to use our spinal fracture plate or, you know, skull fracture plate right here. And then he came from a whole line of skilled artists and he was very good at, like, sketching. And so the doctor sometimes would be like, You know, what I really need is something that goes through the bone like this. And it does that one of these. And so then he would sketch it on the drape. And he has two patents for these expensive plates. Yeah, which to bring a totally full circle. When he was sick. He was going in the hospital all the time. And any poor guy he tripped, getting out of the car, and he broke his hip right in the driveway of the hospital and he got one of his pins put in his hip.


>> Katie: Wow.


>> Brian: At least he was on location.


>> Abbe: Totally. I gotta love the magic of it all. Like, and the doctor was like All right, Mr Wright. Like, how about you tell us, You know, the cost benefit analysis of doing the surgery And, you know, what are the risks and rewards. And he was so sharp.


>> Katie: How into the memoir are you?


>> Abbe: I've got, like, chunks. So basically, it's, you know, I'm writing about his stories, like in his voice that he told me And then also my experience of watching my dad be sick and sort of following him up the stairs like a baby. Are you gonna fall? So there's a little bit of that And then also, I'm realizing now, like, after he died in 2015. So I'm a little bit further out now, which I think was like perspective finally, is that his death actually caused me to get sober, and so I feel very grateful about that. And so I think my sobriety is gonna be in there, so it keeps getting bigger, but I think in a really amazing way.


>> Brian: And you don't have to answer this. But do you wish that you had done it before he passed?


>> Abbe: Yeah, I do.


>> Brian: Did he know that you wanted to, or like, you know, something like that?


>> Abbe: So I'll tell you this. The story I found a journal of hiss. So I'm like, So sad is the Christmas after the October that he died and it's in between Christmas and New Year's. And I'm just like in my parents' house, like sitting in his office, which just feels like him and like going through his like desk, which was like, You know, like your dad's desk is so mystical on, like, what secrets are hidden in there. And so I'm just like going through things. And I find this like, 1970's composition notebook and I open it up. The first page that falls open that I opened it to is his handwriting, and it's his New Year's resolutions for 1979 into 80 on, So he's 31 when he's writing it. I'm 31 when I'm reading it and he goes, treat myself better mentally, physically, spiritually, And then he highlights no booze, no drugs. And I'm like Oh shit. I think you're telling me something here dad.


>> Brian: Did he have issues with it himself?


>> Abbe: I never knew him to ever struggle with it. So he was a huge guy, like, very big and stature. And so I never saw him drunk. But reading this notebook, it was like, you know, he was like today is the day like I'm so far behind it. Work like my boss knows that I'm, like, two weeks behind on paperwork. I gotta quit smoking dope and drinking beers And, like, today's the day and then 9 p.m. The same day, he'd be like, woops. I had two joints and six beers, and I'm like, Fuck, but this is my thought process in his handwriting, like, 30 years ago. Yeah. So it made me sort of look in the mirror and be like, What are you engaging in that you could be treating yourself better mentally, Physically, Spiritually? And so I really feel like he took my hand and, like, just let me there and you know, it took awhile for me to get there. That was in in 2015 to 16 So I dabbled in sobriety and then went out and then, you know, by 17 it was pretty clear this is what I need to do.


>> Brian: You had done research


>> Abbe: Exactly. So it's the best decision I've ever made. And I wish you could see that. Yeah, like I wish. But I do. I feel like he knows, you know, Um, so, yeah, I feel like I had this wild dream. I haven't told really anybody about this, but I had a dream where, you know, we were in some party and my brother and I was like, Oh, Jeff, it's time to let go into this room where the coats are at this party and talk to dad even though in the dream he was already dead. So I'm like, lying on this bed, like, on top of all the coats. And my dad's sitting in this armchair and I'm like Dad, I just celebrated three years sober, and at the time of the dream, I had just celebrated two years sober, and I'm like, Yeah, I just celebrated three years and he's like I know and I love that you use the word celebrate. So it was almost like looking forward into the future. Like this is a path you stay on. He knows he's totally psyched. We're celebrating this. It's not a life sentence here. Yeah, it's actually just like the total badass way to be.


>> Katie: I'm excited about this memoir.


>> Abbe: Thank you. Yeah, he and I had sailing in common, and so sort of the tie through all of the things is like, I was sort of didn't get sailing like as a gene like, is that a gene that, like a love of the wind and everything that he loved? And so my working title is Adjust Your Sails like, you know, we can't change the wind and, like losing your dad to cancers is shitty wind but you have to adjust your sails.


>> Brian: That's crazy. What I read on the day that I talked about going to rehab and stuff like that on this podcast, I read about a character whose dad said the same thing to him. You can't change the fucking wind like you know.


>> Abbe: No way. Totally. I got that on a fortune cookie with some Chinese food when he was sick. So, yeah, it's a good mantra.


>> Brian: I really like that.


>> Katie: Yeah, well, so since you're so affiliated with Penguin Random House, when you when you get it finished are you gonna go like, Hey, guys. Hey, guys.


>> Abbe: Um I hope so. I have an agent, Victoria Sanders, who's awesome.


>> Katie: What agency?


>> Abbe: Victoria Sanders Associates. She's very cool and hilarious. And I love her, and she's totally been, like, so patient. She was like, Oh, you know, whenever you're ready. So, yeah, but I will be like in order to promote my own book, I could sell it to Penguin Random House.


>> Katie: Yeah, that would be a bummer if you were doing this podcast that you could not promote your own book.


>> Abbe: I know. Interviewing yourself is gonna be kind of difficult.


>> Brian: It could be a really funny episode, though.


>> Abbe: So Abbe. Hey. Yeah, but I also write, like, fun, personal essays just about like being a 30 something year old woman in New York and dating and all sorts of weird experiences that I've had that of course. You know, you collect.


>> Katie: And you were talking about one. Is it time? I think 45 minutes in. Do you want to read?


>> Brian: Let's do it.


>> Abbe: Okay. Let me pull it up here.


>> Katie: I'm excited to hear this. Just for context. We were talking about this essay before we started.


>> Abbe: So this is a piece I wrote for the cut New York mag. And the title is called. "I Wanted to Break Up. Then He Got a Tattoo of My Name”.


>> Katie: It's pretty accurate on the nose title.


===============

Read "I Wanted to Break Up. Then He Got a Tattoo of My Name” by Abbe Wright


https://www.thecut.com/2014/12/i-wanted-to-break-up-he-got-a-tattoo-of-my-name.html

===============


>> Katie: Wow.


>> Brian: What a tale of romantic extortion. (laughter)


>> Abbe: I know it is like psychological warfare a little bit.


>> Brian: Yeah, Yeah, it's crazy How that, like, you know, maybe not that soul thing, but like that definitely helped you stay in a relationship that you didn't want to be in for another two and 1/2 years.


>> Abbe: It truly did.


>> Brian: And I think a lot of people can relate to that. No one is in a relationship that goes like, Oh, they've realized, Oh, I want to break up with this person and then goes to their house. You know what I mean? But then they get a tattoo on.


>> Abbe: Exactly. I knew someone staying together because of the rent. Like they live together. And they were like, I can't pay on my own. (laughter)


>> Brian: Oh, the humanity.


>> Katie: Alright, well, it's getting close


>> Brian: Yeah. Is there anything else you want to talk about?


>> Abbe: No, I mean, I'm so honored to be here. This is so great.


>> Katie: Thank you for being on This has been great.


>> Abbe: This has been so great. I know my Eagles, my Philadelphia Eagles are playing on Thursday night football. So that's where I'm headed.


>> Brian: Oh shit. Are you going to a gathering of Eagles fans? Or are just going home?


>> Abbe: I scream at the TV, so it's better to be alone.


>> Brian: We should have you over sometime to just watch football. And Katie can act like she...


>> Katie: Does this mean you're an Always Sunny fan?


>> Abbe: Definitely.


>> Katie: I'm now a fan of the Eagles just because of that show.


>> Brian: I am a very, very rueful Redskins fan. I hate everything about that franchise, but I grew up. I hate Daniel Snyder. I hate the fact that they haven't changed their name. They suck. They're the worst. But it's really fun, because if they lose, I'm happy. And if they win, I'm kind of happy.


>> Katie: Yeah, we're a sports podcast now. (laughter)


>> Brian: This is important.


>> Abbe: So Eagles / Redskins we will just hang out and watch.


>> Katie: And when your memoir comes out, we definitely want you to come back.


>> Abbe: Definitely. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I'm so honored. Thank you, guys. This has been so fun.


>> Katie: Yeah, I think you wait. What can we plug? Where can people find all of your things?


>> Abbe: Go check out www.readitforward.com/. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram and Facebook. Read It Forward. Check us out, Read It Forward, YouTube and search Read it Forward wherever you get your podcasts.


>> Katie: Cool.


>> Abbe: Yeah, and I'm just affiliated with all that.


>> Katie: It's Abby with an e (Abbe).


>> Abbe: Yeah, although in college football players called me Abbe the Babe.


>> Brian: Oh, nice. I'll take that. That'll get your name tattooed on someone's man part. (laughter) Okay, that's it for today's episode, if you like what you heard, please subscribe in review on whichever platform you're listening. You can get in touch with us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram at @animalriotpress or through our website animalriotpress.com. This has been the 37th episode of the Animal Riot Podcast brought to you by Animal Riot with me, your host, Brian Birnbaum, and featuring Abbe Wright. Transcripts for our Deaf and Hard of Hearing animals are provided by Jon Kay. And we're produced by Katie Rainey, without whom we'd be merely three of Shakespeare's 1000 monkeys banging on a typewriter.