Episode 27: Kicking the Ghost

July 18th, 2019
Hosted by Brian Birnbaum
Guest: Moses Utomi
Produced by Katie Rainey
Transcript by Jon Kay

Welcome welcome welcome—welcome I say! To the 27th episode of the Animal Riot Podcast brought to you by who tfe but us at Animal Riot Press. Today we’ve got Moses Utomi, fellow Sarah Lawrence Fiction MFA’er—-and proud of it. Today we’re going to talk all things genre, from its place (or lack thereof) in MFA programs—save for the rise of speculative fiction—the way Moses gets his proverbial ass in the proverbial chair, and his utterly peculiar and exciting experience living in China, not just as a writer, but an amateur kickboxer with actual paid victories to his name. And of course we’ll get a reading from a stunningly crystallized, mystically-inclined short piece of fiction Moses recently published.

>> Brian: Welcome to the 27th episode of the Animal Riot Podcast brought to you by Animal Riot Press, a literary press for books that matter. I'm your host, Brian Birnbaum. We're here today with Moses Utomi who has done a lot of different things for a little bit of time but writing is his constant. When he's not indulging his restlessness by traveling about, he's being a martial artist or doing karaoke with or without a backing track, which I totally get that. You can find me walking the streets of Harlem here with our dog just just rapping with my headphones in and just like everyone just thinks I'm fucking insane. Moses and I are old classmates along with our producers.

>> Moses: Old chums.

>> Brian: Yep. That's good old Sarah Lawrence. Yeah, actually, let's start there. What do you like or dislike about that MFA program? Because we actually just... the episode will have aired by then. We just did an episode. We were talking about auto fiction, and so we talked about... There were two novels that just came out about MFA programs, and we were kind of just, like, man really? You can write about anything, But, uh, apparently they're pretty good, but yes. So what did you like about Sarah Lawrence?

>> Moses: About Sarah Lawrence? Or about the MFA program?

>> Brian: Yeah, either. Yeah, I'm gonna interrupt you right off that and say we need to talk...

>> Moses: Yeah, do it.

>> Brian: Moses brought cupcakes for us, which makes him the best.

>> Moses: But he was also late. I didn't have to say that, but I...

>> Brian: Honestly, your timing was perfect. I was on a very important phone call (laughs), but yeah. Yeah. So yeah, Sarah Lawrence...

>> Moses: I mean, I So I approached Sarah Lawrence. My background is in, like, genre fiction. Like I grew up reading in science fiction, and I wasn't really schooled. And I was a psych major in undergrad. So I wasn't really schooled at all.

>> Brian: Woah. Same.

>> Moses: Really?

>> Brian: Yeah. I was just like I was a finance major and I switched to psych so I could not study and practice guitar (laughs)

>> Moses: You're like fuck, money.

>> Brian: (laughs) Yeah

>> Moses: Yeah, so I was the kind of person that's like, this is my chance. Like, I think I know how to write, but this is my chance to, like, learn right from people who know how to write. And that happens. I mean, I was really happy with the level of instruction, You know how it is. The instructors are fantastic. And the faculty, they're like access to him all the time. You got a really deep dive into, like, your own style and so many other styles and mix and match and blend and figure out what you're doing. I enjoyed it a lot. I think for me, it was like the cons if there was... I mean, I kind of over extended like, I think, you know, I was involved in student government and random stuff. And then grad school, you gotta work several jobs typically.

>> Brian: And like you put on those lit Cinco de Mayo parties where our producers and I met.

>> Moses: Really? Was it?

>> Brian: Yeah, that's where we fell in love. (laughter)

>> Moses: Yeah. So, like so, yeah, I didn't have a lot of time for, like between that and then having to write, I didn't have a lot of time for social stuff, which is, you know, you gotta balance things in life, but yeah, that's the only side of it this far. And I wish I had had more. Now, Sarah Lawrence, I think has, like, a genre track, right?

>> Brian: I think they do.I'm pretty sure they have a speculative fiction genre now. I don't know if they have anything else.

>> Moses: Yeah, that's all you need. So I mean, I wish I had that one else there. That's dope that they have that. And Hollander and a few professors who were pretty familiar with that are into it. And then my first professor, who will not be named, was not about that life at all. All I turned in a short story, and he or she... (laughter)

>> Brian: They

>> Moses: ...wasn't about it. It was just like, you know, why are there Martians in this shit? She wasn't having it. He or she wasn't having it, so yeah.

>> Brian: What was it science fiction?

>> Moses: It was sci fi. I don't remember what it was about.

>> Brian: So I'm actually curious. I'll well interject here. Where do you? Because I actually think it's if they were gonna add a genre. I actually really like that it was speculative fiction because I mean, like, an MFA program. It is kind of like you either go there for literary fiction or nonfiction. That's like kind of like the deal, you know, or else you kind of, like sticking out like a sore thumb. But like, do you find yourself, like, kind of between those lines between SciFi and speculative?

>> Moses: Yeah, I think these last couple years I've had to, like, kind of refine myself because after going... I mean in my heart of hearts, I'm a snob. I enjoy being a snob, like looking down on people like it.

>> Brian: Well you're tall.

>> Moses: That helps, right? When I finally got it properly educated in writing, like my whole life, I was like, I love writing, but I don't know what I'm doing right. And I finally got educated. I was like, Yeah, fuck like speculative, like, Oh, that shit is for nerds like I'm about that real shit now and then. But, you know, that's really not what I love. And so I had I spent, like, a year or two like reading a lot of realist or mainstream literary fiction and not just couldn't it didn't have the same spark. And so I had to go back to the genre. Both literary genre and more like just Pulp genre kind of stuff I grew up reading. That's really just for kids. Kind of like figuring out what I love about it.

>> Brian: Who are those writers? What did you like as a kid?

>> Moses: I mean, as a kid. Robert Jordan Robin, George R. R. Martin, who is now famous. But like that's Yeah, that kind of like sword and sorcery kind of fantasy.

>> Brian: Have you ever heard of a book called Magician by Raymond Feist?

>> Moses: Yeah, I was a big fan. I read that whole series.

>> Brian: I think I've brought that up on this podcast before.

>> Moses: Really?

>> Brian: I was obsessed with that book when I was a kid.

>> Moses: Yeah, he I mean, he's one of the titans, if you like.

>> Brian: I've been thinking about going back to read that again. It was just, it was insane. I remember by the end of that book, like people there were, there were armies coming through portals. It was crazy, wild. It's crazy.

>> Moses: I went to a Marlon James reading out here recently, he wrote, his new book is out. He doesn't Need a plug from me. He's fine.

>> Brian: Well, our 100,000,000 fans will hear this.

>> Moses: Give them the Animal Riot bump. He read Leopard, Blackwolf Black Leopard, Red Wolf, Whatever. He has a new book out, and he wrote a brief history. Seven Killings won the Man Booker. Then he jumped over the fantasy and put out his new book, and it's like legit fan. I'm not done with it yet, but it's like I thought it would be... His first book is really dense, really dense literary. On this next one, I thought I'd be like a dense literary fantasy, but it's not. It's pretty. It's a pretty straightforward fantasy of the African and inspired fantasy. His reading. I've got to talk to him a bit about, like the genre now what it's like. And he's like, Yeah, he grew up the same way reading Fantasy and Cross Your Honor, And George R. R. Martin's kind of changed the game. Game of Thrones has changed everything right where it went from, like shit for nerds, Thio people understanding that within that costume of princesses and dragons and shit there's real stories, like serious, complex thoughts.

>> Brian: The same human emotion drama just a different window dressing. So what do you do? You think? What was the moment that you went back? And we're like, like, kind of went back to your roots and you were like, Yeah, why did I have the stick up my ass?

>> Moses: I mean, there's obviously authors in between. David Mitchell I think it's dope, right? And he kind of do whatever the fuck he wants. I think we talked about him back.

>> Brian: Man, you just... cupcakes. David Mitchell, our producers, has the last line of Cloud Atlas on honor tattooed on her biceps.

>> Moses: He's a genius, and he doesn't give a fuck about genre lines, right? I just write what I need to write. And so for a while I was in that lane. I was like, This is dope. But I was like, I need to get away, you know, move deeper into literature or whatever. And so I did that. And then I just got overwhelmed and I read Robin Hobb, who is like in the fantasy world. She's like the OG OG. Like she puts out a book a week, she writes Crazy fast and her shit. It's so quality. And I When I went back to it, I went back to a series called, I already forgot. My brain is trash, man. I'm getting old.

>> Brian: From your corporate job? (laughter)

>> Moses: It's anyway. It's her main series and people who know her will know it. But check out Robin Hobb. I went back to read it expecting it to be like my kind for kids, you know, I read as a kid, so in my head that's what it was, illustrating children's literature. And once I started reading it, I was like, This is so well written like it's so sentence by sentence. It's so sharp and the emotion is so deftly handled. I don't know, like I just assumed that because I'd read as a kid it was childish, but it was just up there in terms of like, sentence craft up there with any solid mainstream literature. And that's when I was like, Yeah, why am I ignoring all the shit that got me here, you know, like with the books I love. Why am I reading books I can't get through instead of reading stuff I love. It was kind of a turning point.

>> Brian: Yeah. Huh. So it sounds like you're trying to impress something.

>> Moses: Oh, yeah. Who's impressed by me reading? We're all literate. Nobody cares.

>> Brian: Yeah. So yeah. Where are you now?

>> Moses: Yeah, So now I mean, I've managed to blend the two and I found authors who I think sit in this space I want to sit in. Like Ted Chiang has written everything. He's kind of, he's the master. Really? He's fantastic. He wrote, you know, Arrival, the movie?

>> Brian: Oh, yeah. Amy Adams. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Moses: And wrote the short story that's based on its...

>> Brian: Yeah, that was a good movie.

>> Moses: It's the story's even better. It's wild. So but like...

>> Brian: What is it called? Arrival?

>> Moses: It's called The Story of Your Life. (oh) Yeah, it's kind of like science fiction, fantasy canon. It's just a masterwork. And seeing authors like that reminded me that I was like, Yeah, I didn't have to leave this right to pursue something worthwhile. So I'm kind of in between now. I think my short stories are a little... I mean, so the other side of it is commercial demands, right? Like what sells. I'm Nigerian, so we're not allowed to be broke. (laughter) That's not work like I do have to be aware of. Like what I can sell. And so first I started off writing literary fantasy that I thought was like dope in pushing envelopes and things. I realized that nobody wants to read that. So I had to, like, tone it down.

>> Brian: Why not, though? Because that's kind of what George R. R. Martin does. Yeah, like, because I kind of see him. The way he reached everyone was because it was like a lot of people think it's like, Oh, like he's just got He's got tits and cuss words but that's not it. It's like, he's actually, he's, but he's inside everyone's bedroom, you know, and that's like, really all that matters.

>> Moses: I mean, I was doing like MFA experimental stuff, so it's not that there's no market for that, but I think it's that all these lines are arbitrary. But I think when I think literature is much more open to formal experimentation and genre, typically, when something feels new and fresh and Jonah, it's often a conceit or an approach, you know, a subversion of tropes or something like that. So I was doing way too much. But I've got now to a place where I'm comfortable in a narrative voice that is plot driven with a couple formal quirks here and there. When I feel like you get away with it, That's not, You know, the engine of it. Yeah. And then some characters that, you know, also meaningful, substantial rounded characters.

>> Brian: Did that happen? Did that happen at Sarah Lawrence, or has this happened? That happened, like after? Because I remember, this must have been a year or two ago. We had dinner once, and you said you were working on a couple novels. You always see. Yeah, you always seem to be working on, like, a bunch of shit wants, you know, kind of like the opposite of me. Like, you know, in between drafts of my book, I... there's just a bunch of abandoned manuscripts, you know?

>> Moses: Really? It's like you'll never go back?

>> Brian: I'll never go back, but yes. Oh, so this happened at, like this happened after Sarah Lawrence. So was there any influence from any of the faculty there going? Hey, maybe you should be going back to this genre stuff. Where did you come to that by yourself?

>> Moses: David Ryan. Like the ghost of David, He's alive. Sorry, I didn't want to scare. Dave Ryan's stuff we talked about in class became more relevant as I was going through this process. He's a pretty open minded dude, too, and he's cool with it. And so when we were working on that, you know, I was kind of constrained by what the thesis was. But some of the stuff we discussed during that process came back to my mind when I was going through my own process and it kind of helped me in form and moving back to what I love.

>> Brian: Oh, yeah. OK, I see. And did you have David Hollander?

>> Moses: Yeah, I had him twice I think. Twice.

>> Brian: The reason, I ask, is because his novel that we're publishing Yeah, I mean, It definitely has a lot of those like... I would say it goes past speculative. You know, it's like they're sci fi, but it is literary at its heart, you know, But I just find I do find it interesting that the MFA program really is like this high minded institution, You know what I mean? And I think there does need to be... I mean, you look, you look at people that are self publishing on Amazon and stuff. Yeah, it's almost always genre, you know, and yeah Okay, so us we want we want to publish literary stuff, but at the same time, like it is kind of disconcerting when people go to these programs and they get persuaded to do something that makes them feel like they should fit in or something like that, even though the faculty is amazing and like, you know, But there is. There's a lot of talk about this craft. There's a lot of talk about truth and you doing and language and all that stuff that personally I care about, of course. But you know, if I didn't, then I'd have a problem, you know? But yes, So what are you tangibly working on now? And like and kind of like, What are your, like, tangible pursuits and where are you with all that stuff?

>> Moses: So I'm trying to... there is an entire robust and beautiful short fiction market for speculative fiction. One of the big differences is... one of the biggest differences, I think, between speculative fiction, marketplace and literary one is that you probably can't make a living, depending on what part of the world you're in. But you can do really well just selling short stories. There's a lot of pro markets and people read them, which is, I think, a big difference.

>> Brian: To who?

>> Moses: The big ones are Clark's World, Fireside fiction, which shout out to them for publishing my short. Clark's World is a major one. Light speed, Strange Horizons. There, so many... Fia, it's speculative fiction from for African American, African Caribbean, they're doing great work. There's so many of them that are killing it, and they pay really well. They pay professional rates, because more people are reading, read it as a day is like and that's that's the difference with a lot of, you know, mainstream literary journals that they make a lot of their money from submission fees, right?

>> Brian: It's like a Ponzi scheme.

>> Moses: It is because nobody's reading it. Like if you have people like If you had something people wanted, you could sell it. But it's a different world. There's so much of a lot more of it whereas, you know, speculative fiction, it's more. It's a smaller community. So I have been cranking out short stories, fuel, probably polish the next couple of months, and I'll be sending those out. And then I'm working on a novel, of course.

>> Brian: Yeah. Is it the same one we were talking about back in the day?

>> Moses: No. Yeah, this is a...

>> Brian: Because you were getting some interest from agents.

>> Moses: Yeah. So that first novel, that was before I had gone through my whatever process. And it was sitting more on the side of literature than I was comfortable with. So it was getting more attention from literary agents than speculative fiction agents. And you're so I had to do it.

>> Brian: Oh, that's like I remember having that conversation. Yeah, it's coming back to me now.

>> Moses: I have to figure out what I want to be in this space I'm more comfortable in. And so that's That's what I like to put this on hold and see what I can put out that takes a lot of that.

>> Brian: That takes a lot of guts, man.

>> Moses: Or stupidity.

>> Brian: If I had an agent knocking on my door, You like what? I don't care how much it what the fuck I am now. Yeah, I think we just convinced you of something. We just pivoted away, and now we're a fantasy press now. We're gonna make $1,000,000,000. (laughter) So if it happened after grad school, did he going to China have anything to do with it? Is that by chance, where you kind of came to terms with yourself?

>> Moses: A little bit. It was, honestly, more coming back. Yeah, there's something about, like I lived in Asia before, so I lived in Thailand when I was a baby. I was, like, 20 something years, decades centuries ago. But, uh yeah, and so, in a weird way, it was very comfortable for me, and so I actually felt free to do whatever. It's when I came back that I felt... I got like, like a more practical kind of lens and not practical, like a limiting, like, disappointing way practical but in terms of a career, right? Like, what would a writing career look like? And where do I want to enter from and who knows what my peers to be and all those things. Whereas in China, I was just like it's the world is, you know, it's my backyard. I could do whatever I want. And I did. I had a lot of creativity out there. But it wasn't focused all over the place.

>> Brian: Was there a literary scene out there?

>> Moses: There was, I'm sure. I mean, you mean English literary scene or Mandarin?

>> Brian: Well, obviously there's a Mandarin scene. I mean, just... I guess the better question would be Was it visible? Can you read?

>> Moses: Not well, Yes. Oh, so it was hard. It was hard to kind of Yeah, I'm probably better reading it now, too. I practice more now than I did when I was there. I mean, yeah, there's literally Chinese. Literature is totally fine. They're doing great. English. So I wasn't. I wasn't a town. They call it a. They have their cities in tiers. So there's Tier one tier 22 or three. It's headed down to like to your six or seven.

>> Brian: That's fucked up. (laughter)

>> Moses: Yeah, shit on all the cities. So, like to your wines like Beijing, Shanghai, right? I was in a tier three city, so, like it's like that. Well, I mean to Chinese people like what you are doing out? Why're you out there like That's like Kentucky for them? You know what you doing out in Topeka? But it's like it's a 7,000,000 person city, but I think the Delta...

>> Brian: No offense to Kentucky.

>> Moses: Offense meant. Just kidding. I don't know anything about the state. Yes, there was a literary scene in the Tier One cities, right? I mean, that's a city like New York, right? You got anything. But I think when you get down to Tier three, I'm sure there's a literary scene, but quite a bit smaller. And, yeah, I don't know if there's an English literary scene, necessarily.

>> Brian: I mean, that that perfectly mirrors here, too. We've talked about that. A lot of this podcast. We did a like animals on the road sort of thing. We went to a few cities, especially a little rock, Arkansas. And yeah, it does. It gets tough. The smaller against tougher against more. The more distance do you feel from the resources is like, you know, to attain the goals.

>> Moses: Yeah. It seems so possible here in New York. Yeah, it seems so like, yeah, you read a book, get publishing, do whatever. Yeah, when you're out in a place that doesn't have that support, it's gotta feel different.

>> Brian: Even though it's not nearly that easy. (laughter) So I am really interested in this, like this link between finding your voice, you know, as it were. And from your experience, traveling, especially in China. Just because I'm kind of interested, were you writing a lot there? It's because I know you were. What was it? Kickboxing. You were like you were like an amateur kickboxer. Were you getting paid for that?

>> Moses: I was. There's so much There's so many people out there and there's so much money out there that you get paid for things that you wouldn't get paid for. The state's interesting, right? Despite how many people are there. Yeah, that's what I mean. Also, I'm a Western. I don't want to pretend that isn't a privilege, right? Like there's plenty of people going up trying. We're struggling and we'll be struggling for a while and I just waltz in and I guess, certain privileges. But there's just a lot of people like I thought about my first fight. It was like a really amateur, really, really amateur fight, and it's like there's like a video.

>> Brian: Like a pig was the referee?

>> Moses: (laughs) Everything out there is so well produced and polished, like children's talent shows and the stage is like gorgeous, like 10 foot high like lights and fireworks is ridiculous. And so the fight was really well produced, but like it's a bunch of amateurs and the video of it, it's like a six hour video on this like YouTube, off shoot and Chinese version of that. And it got, like, 10,000,000 views in a week. Like they like Chinese fame. That's the thing. I'm not because everything gets 10,000,000 views.

>> Brian: There's like, there's, like, a multiplier rule.

>> Moses: It really is. Yeah. So, yeah, they can afford to pay you right, get sponsors. You're being seen. Yeah, it's wild.

>> Brian: So were you writing when you were doing all this stuff?

>> Moses: I had a really good set up out there, so I I worked about 25 hours a week, and then...

>> Brian: Yes, that's pretty good.

>> Moses: Yeah, Super sweet. So I have plenty of time to, right? And I would write first thing when I woke up, and then I would write after work often cause I work during the week, Week days. I worked, like, four hours, three hours a day, and so I'd go to work it five ish, and I'd be done by, like, 8 or 8 30 And so I go to cafe right after work, right toe, like 11 had home and hit the hay, and I don't start the next day until 5 p.m. again so I can chill. Whatever. Yeah, I got a ton of writing, so I wrote I finished the manuscript, I finished two drafts of it. So when I went there, I finished. I finished the manuscript when I got there. Then I started a new book while I was there and finished that, too. I had quite a bit of time, so yeah, it wasn't bad.

>> Brian: That's crazy. 25 hours a week, plus writing. Getting to kick box? Why'd you come back?

>> Moses: No idea, man, huh? No, my, um I mean, I had a novel and I was like, All right, we'll bring it back.

>> Brian: You got You got the shit kicked out.

>> Moses: I got knocked out so I wouldn't get jumped.

>> Brian: Embarrassed? Can't set foot there.

>> Moses: My brother. He was pursuing acting. He's an actor. So he was pursuing Broadway. So I was like, Well, I want to publish a book. He's like, I want to get on Broadway. So he came out here.

>> Brian: Yeah, that's right. I remember now you guys were living together. Is that still going on?

>> Moses: Now he's killing it. He's on Hamilton on Broadway.

>> Brian: You're shitting me.

>> Moses: No, he's on tour right now in Baltimore.

>> Brian: Oh, my God. That's amazing.

>> Moses: He's a genius. He booked a super fast.

>> Brian: So but yeah, uh, I feel like I kind of took us off course. So, like, yeah, where are you? Like what? What are you working on and like...

>> Moses: I'm working on, so that it was, you know, again, because I was thinking about, like, what do I actually know in love? And I was like, I love my culture. I'm Nigerians. I love culture. My background. I love my family.

>> Brian: Are you first generation?

>> Moses: I am. Yeah. I love combat sports. I like fighting. So that's what I'm writing. So it's an African based or African and South Asian inspired fantasy.

>> Brian: Interesting fusion.

>> Moses: Yeah, it's basically like the tournament. Arkan animates a bunch of characters who train and they're fighting and kind of the fate of their They live in these little families, and the fate of their family is on the line in this tournament.

>> Brian: So that's like, that's like, uh, It's like Mortal Kombat meets Hunger Games kind of shit.

>> Moses: I'll let you pitch it. I've been struggling that way and I just got...

>> Brian: Yeah, that's crazy. I just got the comp titles. Is that the main thing you're focusing on?

>> Moses: Yeah, that's a lot of fun. So I've divided my writing between space. So, like, I'm on that when I'm on the train, I write short stories just cause my voice feels different.

>> Brian: You kind of you mirror the sort of allotment.

>> Moses: Yeah, Yeah. When I'm at home on the weekends, I find a place to sit, right?

>> Brian: So, yeah, it sounds like, you sound similar to me in the sense of the time you put into it. But I'm curious. I think every writer is curious about this about how they approach the craft. Is this one of those things where you premeditated when you're gonna write and how you're gonna write? Or is it one of those things for me, it's more like I feel like I don't have to worry about it because it just happens. Like I just I don't know. Maybe it's that I was actually just talking about this yesterday. I'd like to ask the question of like, Why do you write? Yeah, it's almost self. It's a self serving e Don't get answers itself, is what I'm trying to say. You know, the writer is groping for words, um no. I mean, like, seriously, I couldn't tell you why. Because it feels so axiomatic to me. Yeah, I don't know. Do you have a schedule?

>> Moses: I try. So I think I just habituated pretty quickly. So, like, there's a There was a while I was writing. Like, as soon as I got home from work, I'd write That was, like, my routine. And I write for an hour.

>> Brian: Even from this job? Even from it was because I'm imagining you come back in China coming back with that. Your robe still open? Gashes across her chest, cracking your glasses. Time to write. (laughter) Your feet are in, like a nice ice bath.

>> Moses: That wasn't actually that I do find that really actually, when I was, I was training out here. When I first got back, I had more time, and I'll still hopped up on testosterone. It's actually the perfect time for you to write is after, like, training hard. My body's just exhausted. I was like, Let's do it. Let's get to work.

>> Brian: And you kind of cut through the bullshit.

>> Moses: Yeah, Time your body, like Look, do this shit and get to sleep. We're tired. So I've tried different routines for a while. It's writing right after training for a while. Is writing right after work. But I find it like after, like, 10 days, something about that routine gets weird and I just can't get back in the groove. And so I gotta switch it up. And so sometimes I start routines. If I feel like I need to, you know, in a milestone. Like, I need to get this chapter done or this arc done or this actor whatever but most of the time, like I can't go... I always write. It's kind of what you said. I can't go two days, three days without writing, right?

>> Brian: Right. Um, yeah, that and I can relate to that, too. And I think where a lot of writers go astray is when they set up a routine and then they beat themselves up when they don't stick to it. And I feel like a routine is, it's like a paradox. It's almost like a routine is great up to the point where it's flexible, you know? And once you hit that point where it's not flexible in its rigidness, you can see it on the page, Your shit just becomes boring because it's tedious. You just go on that. You're forcing yourself to go at it. I mean, I don't have the answer to the other side because, like, I do feel like it's hard for me to relate to those writers who say, like I really want to write but that writing sucks and it's so boring, you know what I mean? It's like I don't really understand it, You know what I mean?

>> Moses: Yeah. Um, I mean, I get that in the sense that for me, writing often does suck.

>> Brian: But I get to the point where it has to. If you want, you want to get published, especially when you're like when you're to the point where you're not creating so much as refining or editing. That's where it turns from a vocation into a profession. We're now working.

>> Moses: It's not great work, easier work, much better paid, easier work. Um, but yeah, I find that for, like, if I When I do use a routine, I find that useful for first drafts when I need to crank out the idea. Just get the messiness on paper. I do find routines very useful for that. But then after that, yeah, a lot of it is, you know, writing away from the desk away from the computer. Write walking around and having the characters kind of solidifying my mind and having motivations make more sets in living in the world a little longer before actually sitting down and refining it. But the refining is not the fun part.

>> Brian: Yeah. Oh, my God. It really is.

>> Moses: You worked on your novel for a year?

>> Brian: Six years.

>> Moses: Fuck

>> Brian: Yeah. I mean, there were gaps, you know, and that's when I started writing those other manuscripts that I ultimately just abandoned, you know, But one other question I have for you is, you know, I don't I don't want to say that I think people should avoid that kind of thing. You know, you said you felt like you were kind of going away from your roots a little bit when you got in the MFA program. And I don't necessarily see that is an inherently bad thing everywhere. Everyone's gotta find something their own way, but at the same time, Yeah, efficiency is cool. Everyone likes, you know, if you could be more efficient, that's great, right? What would you advise people that are trying to get into MFA programs, which can be haughty and, you know, lofty. And you know, all those words that we know that kind of associate with that institution, you know, like, but they actually want to write their shit that's not literary, you know. I mean, like as a literary press, I think one of the most important things we can do is advocate for any other sort of press. I mean, like, if they like you, just said there's probably more people reading fantasy and science fiction than literary fiction. I think we all know that, you know, I don't know is there, so I don't want to say like, Is there anything you would have done differently? But, like, is there something maybe you can like a token of wisdom. You can provide people that want to write mysteries or, you know, crime thrillers or sci-fi, you know?

>> Moses: Yeah, I mean, yeah, I don't know if I would do anything differently. I mean, other than the financial burden of the program, right? Like if you can get a vest on them. If a program it's a great time, like to spend two more years of your life doing nothing but riding anything about writing and learning from other writer for genre, specifically speculative, there's a lot of great workshops and residencies type things you can do right, Clarion is the big one, and there's others my brain isn't thinking of. But you could go away for a week or two weeks and spend time with some of your favorite published writers who really have careers, and they'll give you wisdom. I'm in right now, a science fiction fantasy mentorship program where you get paired up with an established writer.

>> Brian: So you're mentee?

>> Moses: Yeah, I can't mentor anyone.

>> Brian: I'm feeling very mentored right now. (laughter) I just want to be looked down upon. Mentored.

>> Moses: I mean, for a genre writer, I think, Yeah, there's a lot of other channels other than MFAs. I know there's more and more MFAs now that are offering some sort of speculative track. Obviously, I haven't been through one, so I don't know if that has more.

>> Brian: Would you have chosen that one?

>> Moses: Yeah

>> Brian: Yeah, I would assume so. I actually think it's really important. And, uh, this is like there's, like, a running theme of, like, a few things we always bring upon this podcast. One of them is the Sergio De La Pava and Susanna De La Pava crime family. They're like, they're like, our First literary family. I love them to death. I also always bring out this book called Sapiens.

>> Moses: Yeah. I love that book.

>> Brian: Oh. You've read it?

>> Moses: I'm working on an essay right now that involves ideas in that book.

>> Brian: Oh, my God. I fucking love it. Love it. Dude, if you want eyes on it before you get out, please?

>> Moses: Sure.

>> Brian: To me, Like I want to read it now that he's like my main man. And no, I mean, like, I really agree with him when he says the most important art form right now is speculative fiction. Just because we are at this, like, we're at this turning point where, like, algorithms are, like, taking over our lives, you know? And if we don't understand that and we don't understand what they're capable of then we're in deep shit, you know?

>> Moses: 100% agree.

>> Brian: So, yeah. Now, I'm really glad you're writing about that. That's awesome.

>> Moses: Love that book. I got to read it again.

>> Brian: Yes. So I guess before we get a little reading from you, Um, and our 100,000,000 listeners, get to hear the brilliance of Moses.

>> Moses: Hold onto your seats.

>> Brian: I'm really curious because you have this, like, corporate day job, right? And like for me, I mean, I do in a way to but it's different because it is different working from home because I get to set my own schedule. It's easier to get shit done honestly when you don't have people badgering you and like, you know, around the office and stuff like that. But what I'm more interested in is also just like you say, you come home and you write. Is the job soul sucking at all? How do you deal with that? I mean, I think it's because one of the writers wants to know the same thing they get, They want to write and they try. There's one of two options you get up before work and write. And I would say, like, probably 80% of the world's, like Go fuck yourself. Yeah, I'll shoot that rooster in the face. Yeah, What are producing our producers are, Like I said, 80% of the world.

>> Moses: So there's 20%.

>> Brian: You represented 20% of the population minority. Yeah, but yeah, but then, like, you know, but then so then that leaves you with the option. Unless you only want to write on the weekends. You know, it leaves you with after work and honestly, for me, it's just like, oh, my God, when I'm done working, this is tough.

>> Moses: I mean, I think it depends on the job for sure. I write a lot at my job, but it's non fiction writing, right? So my fiction brain feels untapped in a way it almost like it's like poking the bear kind of right? It's like I'm sitting there writing true things about real people. And my brain is like, Yo, Bo, what if Martin Luther King? (laughter) I want to change it up? And so when I go home...

>> Brian: What if his dream fully... (laughter)

>> Moses: Yeah, racial equality. What would that be like? In a way it fuels me in. I mean, it's good because I'm refining my actual writing. Writing is writing at the same time, though I'm not using that part of my brain that needs to create original things or whatever with stories that I really want to tell. And so I don't know. It depends on the person, too, you know, I've always come from a big ass... I have seven people in my family. So I always had to write as a like, after leaving something like moving away, moving into my own space to write. So it feels very natural for me to have my time and energy consumed in one place, and then I have to kind of squirrel away to write.

>> Brian: So do you also get kind of a surge of energy when you get when you're alone? Just cause, like, yeah, like, it's kind of like relieving you.

>> Moses: Yeah. As soon as I sit on the train like I on the way to work, I read and but assume is on the way back home, as soon as I sit down, I have all these things that need to get out of my fingers, and I like it that time between It's like a 40 minute train ride and passes like five minutes like I'm just cranking out words and then I'm home.

>> Brian: Shit. I really need siblings, man. (laughs) I probably take my alone time for granted. Yeah, let's do a reading.

>> Moses: This is what I had publishing fireside fiction there a fantastic publisher based here in New York. They pay the writers really well. That's when their values or their mission is to pay writers what they deserve. And they put out these gorgeous collections with great artwork, and they're big on... They really value representation and putting forth their voices that haven't been heard, so I like to give a shout out when I can, and they publish me, which was ill advised. But I appreciate it. (laughter)

>> Brian: Eyes it both print and online print and online.

>> Moses: So it's online. Go to FiresideFiction dot com, and they have a ton of stuff to content for free online but also support them. You can find the links online trying to find out shop, go to the shop, subscribe, and they can be hooking you up with regular fantastic content.

>> Brian: Very cool.

>> Moses: So this is a short story called The Story of a Young Woman. It's a fantasy little snippet as we discussed the genre, and here we go.

===========

"The Story of a Young Woman" can be read at Fireside Fiction below:

https://firesidefiction.com/the-story-of-a-young-woman

===========

>> Moses: That's it.

>> Brian: Woah, that was dark as fuck for a second.

>> Moses: I try.

>> Brian: You know it's funny. The first thing I thought when you started reading was like you didn't scrub the literary off of you. Totally. You know, like the language is still really just like it's really eloquent.

>> Moses: Thanks.

>> Brian: Really eloquent - women, sly with poison. I love that phrase. That's great. Yeah. I can't wait to read that again. You know, I'm very much more visual, but yeah, that's that was great.

>> Moses: Thanks, man. Thanks for letting me read it. I appreciate it.

>> Brian: Oh, yeah, of course. When did you get that published?

>> Moses: A while ago. That was 2018 last. Almost this time last year, I think. Last summer.

>> Brian: Yeah. Damn. Yeah. And you got paid for it.

>> Moses: It's ridiculous.

>> Brian: Beautiful.

>> Moses: I know.

>> Brian: Uh, Let's do it, I guess. Ah, it's official. We're going. We're going sci fi now. (laughter) Alexa just chimed in and said "I don't know about that."" I don't think you can pull that off.

>> Moses: Alexa's got opinions.

>> Brian: Okay, So your manuscript? You're drafting?

>> Moses: So I finished the first draft in February and the second draft is killing me. The first draft took me, like, three months. Like I cranked it out the last two months. I spent it, and it just all worked. Of course it didn't. And I'm really going in and putting it together.

>> Brian: So when you draft me, the kind of person that kind of prints it out looks at what's going on and just rewrites it on the side. Or do you kind of like work from within?

>> Moses: It depends on how close it is. If I feel like it's a bit of a mess, I'll just rewrite it. But if I feel like there's something capable all printed out and read it and go line by line before I start to rewrite.

>> Brian: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

>> Moses: What about you?

>> Brian: I am a fucking mess.

>> Moses: Well your book is huge too. You don't want to spend $1000.

>> Brian: I mean, yeah, my, my first draft. I totally chucked. Our producers are handing over in a galley, as they say, Put you on the spot. It's up to you if you review it.

>> Moses: I got you.

>> Brian: Oh, man.

>> Moses: Wow. How did it end up? How many pages do we have? 390?

>> Brian: Yes, Something like that.

>> Moses: I feel like it was like when everyone talks about it as if it was pretty long.

>> Brian: Yeah, it was at one point, like it was over 200,000 words. I'm the kind of I'm the kind of writer that Yeah. I mean, like, when I was younger, I vomited a lot, and then I would clean it up (laughs), which sounds like more literal than it actually is. But yeah. Now, I mean, I feel like as you grow, you can recognize more quickly what's shit and what's not. And then it becomes more of a problem of, like, finishing sentences than chucking a bunch of shitty ones onto the page, you know? But yeah, I kind of do you want to before we sign off. I kind of wanna here a little bit more about your experience in China. We didn't really for sure get into that too much. Like why did you go over there in the first place? And like, how the fuck did you end up kickboxing? (laughter)

>> Moses: So that it's quite a story how I ended up there and kick box. So I went to Thailand before I went to the MFA program. And so I loved it. Obviously that I was like, let me pursue writing. And so after that, I was like, All right, well, I could either be broke here or I could be broken somewhere else so I was looking around. I was gonna go to Brazil. I just couldn't find, like, a decent job that I also felt was safe. I don't want to give my mom a heart attack any more than I do so right. I just saw a job in China and the timing lined up and I was like, All right, let's do it. So I just went and it's I mean, that country is amazing. It's like it just feels very big. It feels huge. There's so many people and there's so much happening and there's so many different kinds of things happening. It feels like a pinball machine. And I enjoyed it. I mean, when I first got there, It was awful. Actually, it was horrible. Yeah, I really regretted it. It was the worst decision I had made. I was super intimidated. I didn't leave my hotel room for like the 1st 3 days. It's like I don't speak the language. I am amused by my foreignness Highland. They're like, Oh, like it's in America. Doesn't get it. They don't expect you to speak Thai. It's a small country that China, they're like. You'll get your shit together in ways that represent like 1/7 of the world. Fucking learn Mandarin. So, yeah, I was intimidated first. And people there especially. It's a bit dog eat dog. You know, you learn a lot. I feel like in school you learn that China's collectivist. That's like the first thing they teach you, right? Yeah, cares for everybody. It's family. It's not like that (laughter) very dog eat dog and everyone's really mean to each other. I find out yeah, settles meals like Fuck you guys. You're mean, I'm a guest like when I no longer live there and I made friends and I realized, like first of all, do not mean in the way I thought they were. And also, it's not me that this is just it's different to communicate in a different way of advancing your opinions.

>> Brian: Is it? Is it more blunt? Is that what it is like? Like, how did it come off as mean? What was underneath? What was under what was the truth underneath? Yes, you know, I mean, I'm on this fine line of like I don't want to I don't know.

>> Moses: I don't want to exoticize And I don't want to, like, diminish what it did, You know, I want to portray it as it is, and I don't pretend to have a full understanding about scholars in China, right? Part of it was meaning to be real, like it's in the same way that New York is more mean than, like Oklahoma. There's a lot of fucking people. And part of it was things that I have a different sense of what's rude or inappropriate, right? Like people stare there. It's just the stare. Old dude's stare. I almost got into so many fights with all these. First I was a yelling psycho in the middle of the street, challenging to duels and shit. (laughter) That's just that's just how it is. And so when I was there as a foreigner. Initially, I was like that because I'm black. Is it because I was dating to go out there because they don't like, you know, me dating like interracial thing. I was like, It's always threatening was always like, Fuck, this could pop off Like I don't know what this staring means and eventually like, Oh, they just stare like it's not me that's staring.

>> Brian: Interesting.

>> Moses: There were some people. They were just dicks. I mean, a cleaning lady in my building. She, like somebody dropped a bottle, a glass bottle somewhere in the hallway. And I woke up at, like, 6 a.m. because I heard glass like by my door, and I went outside and she was just sweeping it all right in front of my door.

>> Brian: Oh my God.

>> Moses: I looked at her and I was like why in Chinese. And she's like, it's yours. And I was like, the glass? I was still drowsy. I was like the glass, it's mine. Like, what are you saying? Just like it's your glass? You know, this isn't okay. You can't just do this to people. And she got mad, like, took it away and walked off. Yeah, there's a lot of people. They just were not nice, but there's a shit ton of people. I mean, it's like New York. There's a lot of people in New York too. So that was, I think, once I figured out, I'll be okay. It was a lot nicer. Not got in with a good group. And I've only done martial arts on and off. So there was a gym. I'm only at the gym right by my place, and one of my friends was going there, so I went. And so that's why I started training. It was good. It was good. I was just kind of doing it for exercise. And then one day the coach came in. He's like, Hey, do you want to fight? And I was like, No. And one of the other dudes I was training with, he was a younger guy. He's cocky. He's like, Yeah, if he's British And so I was like, Well, if he's this idiot's doing it, yeah, I'll be alright. So we start training for the fight. And then I fought.

>> Brian: Was it with each other or the other?

>> Moses: We have a full gym. So there's a few other people like him and maybe 33 other people. So, yeah, we just train, it is like a six week training camp. It was great. I'll string, like 5/6 days a week, a real hard. And then, um I fought and I won my first fight. And so they said, If you win, you might fight again. Which is a pretty weird thing to say. So they're like a You got a fight and that you'll find again next week. And I was like, Okay, cool. Well you should've let me know a month ago. That's fine. Then I fought again the next week. It was super early, like 11 o'clock. The last one had been, like seven or 8 p.m. and so I fight at, like, 11. And I was like, That's crazy, like just in and out like that is dope. And they're like, Oh, you'll have another fight. Like after my fight, you have another fight. Okay, when they're like, give it a couple hours. So I had to fight again. And I hadn't eaten breakfast that day because, like, I didn't know what the schedule would be like. Nobody told me anything. So I had to fight again.

>> Brian: Is it like, Is it like knockouts?

>> Brian: It was a tournament. Nobody fucking knew the word for tournament. They just kept asking if I wanted to fight. I was like, Do I have a choice? What is going on? By the third fight that day, I realized like, Oh, this is a tournament with brackets. (laughter) I don't know if the organizer, whatever, nobody told me. And so I just thought, like, each time, finals, like, find, like rest, I could eat and then fight again.

>> Brian: Did you get paid for that one?

>> Moses: I did? Yes.

>> Brian: And did you know you were gonna get paid?

>> Moses: No. I didn't know anything. They told me the little things they told me were all incorrect. And they didn't tell me most of it. I didn't know who I was fighting. I didn't know the rules. I thought in traditional Muay Thai you're allowed to knee. There's a whole clinch factor to it. They said You're only allowed to meet once and then you break the clinch. It's a different rule said Kick boxing rules. And so the first fight I need one. I pulled off. The guys need me back twice. And I was like, Is this why is not? They were like, no you can knee as much want you want. I was like fuckers.

>> Brian: (laughs) Changing the rules as you go.

>> Moses: Yeah, it was super. It's also like it was held in this, like men. You're a bunch of like, I'm not going to say they're Chinese mobsters because they could be anything. Yeah, but it was That's what it looked like.

>> Brian: Yeah, there's probably crazy betting going on.

>> Moses: Just like betting and chain smoking and girls And like, it wasn't the kind of place you protest if you don't like what's going on?

>> Brian: Get a contract out on you.

>> Moses: My old gym owner hit me up a couple months ago. Moses where you at? I was like, I'm an American dog, like I'm not even living in your country. He's like, Oh, like the guy you beat... the gym owner of the guy you beat wants you to fight like they want you to fight. And I was like, Well, I've been gone for a year, so that's not gonna happen. And then one of the other boys, my training party messaged to do it like they've hired some professional killer to mess you up and restore Chinese honor.

>> Brian: Oh, my God.

>> Moses: Yeah, they don't play around. I mean, it's always been a thing in combat sports where it's like you don't go to a foreign country and walk out with the belt.

>> Brian: Unless your Stephon Marbury.

>> Moses: Unless your Marbury and you get the keys to Beijing. It's fight culture. That's how it is.

>> Brian: But that's not the reason you went? You went just to go.

>> Brian: No, I wanted to train kung fu. I was doing kung fu. And like, I just want experience, a culture, any food and see what it was like and stuff. But that was a cool opportunity to, like, get deep into things.

>> Brian: So when was like, when was the time to leave? When they put the hit out on you? (laughter)

>> Moses: You know, I just I just wanted to be home for the family. Like my brother was doing his thing, and he had a show that I wanted to see. So I wanted to come back to see that. And, like, the air, I think might have been getting to me too. The air was great over there. For health reasons, a family. Let me just go back.

>> Brian: Yeah, yeah, Damn, that is crazy.

>> Moses: It was a wild time, man.

>> Brian: And do you have any lasting injuries?

>> Moses: No, I did okay.

>> Brian: You're you're typing fingers are ok? (laughter)

>> Moses: No, I didn't take too much damage, and it was, I mean, it was weird and shady it looked, you know, nobody's getting They weren't letting people get murdered like it wasn't blood sport. So, yeah, I did alright.

>> Brian: Damn, that is nuts, man. Is there anything you wanna you wanna like, plug or something? Like another story coming out? Say what's up, Agents, Check out my manuscript. Yeah, Yeah. Simon and Schuster what's good (laughter)

>> Moses: I mean, yeah, agents hit me up. I'm always down to work with you guys.

>> Brian: Or you can say or else I'm gonna come kick box the shit out of you (laughter).

>> Moses: I'll kick your door down and go to work. I mean, I'm hoping to have some projects done soon. So we'll see.

>> Brian: Ok cool cool, but definitely yes. Send me that essay. Or if you just send out, let me know.

>> Moses: Yeah.

>> Brian: I am obsessed with Yuval (Sapiens), man. That dude is on another level. All right, cool. Okay, that's it for today's episode. If you like what you heard, please subscribe and review on whichever platform you're listening. You can get in touch with us on Twitter, Facebook & Instagram @Animal Riot Press or through our website animalriotpress.com. This has been the 27th episode of the Animal Riot Podcast with me, your host Brian Birnbaum, and featuring Moses Utomi. And we're produced by Katie Rainy, without whom we would be merely two of Shakespeare's 1000 monkeys banging on a typewriter.