Episode 25: Dear Ocean

July 4th, 2019
Hosted by Brian Birnbaum
Guest: Kwame Opoku-Duku
Produced by Katie Rainey

Welcome back, bunny-people, for the 25th episode of the Animal Riot Podcast brought to you by--who else?--Animal Riot Press. Today we sit down with Kwame Opoku-Duku, a poet and prose writer whose book, Unbnd Verses, out with Glass Poetry Press, is a collection of poems that confront the comportment of black bodies in today's America. Kwame and yours truly discuss his trajectory--from his struggle to channel the dark energy of his youth into the light of his sparkling poetry, to his work with Human Impacts, a environmental-focused advocacy group, and the attendant reading series he curates, Dear Ocean, which invites writers to read work surrounding issues of climate change. 

>> Brian: Welcome to the 25th episode of the Animal Riot Podcast brought to you by Animal Riot Press, a literary press for books that matter. I'm your host, Brian Birnbaum. We're here today with Kwame Opoku-Duku, a poet and prose writer whose collection, The Unbnd Verses, is out with Glass Poetry Press and who also just kicked off a new reading series called Dear Ocean, sponsored by Human Impacts, which invites readers to read work surrounding issues of climate change. And, uh, I've just made my own little submission, as we just discussed. But yeah, let's start. Let's start off with Unbnd Verses when it came out, like your process. Everything. A to Z.

>> Kwame: Well it's interesting because I think and I like, I'm not sure how it's worked with you and your writing process. I know you have a book coming out, but for me, I didn't necessarily realize that it was going to be a book until maybe like a little bit more than half of it was done.

>> Brian: Yeah. Honestly, I feel like that's one of the best ways to go about it. You're not saying this is the thing I need to do and then, like, you find yourself just trying to finish something. And it doesn't come completely from an organic like, passionate place. You know? All that shit can happen. But anyway.

>> Kwame: Yeah, I had actually been writing. I was in a poetry workshop and I have been writing these series of poems called comportment. And it was like comportment number one through like, eight. Every single poem was a comportment poem and some...

>> Brian: Sorry for the illiterate dunces like me when he said Comportment is that Is that only which is at a poetry term?

>> Kwame: I think I just kind of, like, came across this term a lot because of different areas of, like, African American studies and like, culture and like, basically, like just the way you carry yourself.

>> Brian: So it's not It's not something, you know, esoteric to poetry. You're literally talking about You know how people carry them.

>> Kwame: So, yeah, just the way that I mean, I guess, specifically sort of like black bodies move through time and space with these sort of like external pressures around them. And toward the end of it, I just, like, wanted to write a poem that wasn't... that like, wasn't a comportment poem. And so I started thinking about the Bible, actually, and certain aspects of the Bible that I was not, like, necessarily looking to reproduce. But I think I was looking for a new voice, like looking for a new way to I guess, maybe talk about the same things. And so they were called the Old Head verses and sort of like there were two of them and they sort of ended up becoming like the spine of the of the Chapbook.

>> Brian: Did they close it out? Or are the poems not kind of chronological according to you?

>> Kwame: Well, so let's see, like, So I, I like, did them kind of their verses in the book. There are, I think, 53 verses in total, and the first ones I wrote were 45 to 53 then the 2nd 1 I wrote was 1 through 20. And so, I don't know how it ended up working out. Then I wrote like 21 through 25. I just wrote them in weird orders and that kind of worked. And I think a lot of them are sort of the context through which they were written, a lot of time sort of coincided with African Americans being shot by the police, Um, and so...

>> Brian: Were they specifically shooting incidents over there like, you know, the whole "I can't breathe thing"?

>> Kwame: Well, I think one was Alton Sterling and gosh, I can't even remember. They're just like there are so many.

>> Brian: There's almost like an anonymous quality.

>> Kwame: Yeah, and Baton Rouge as well. And yeah, it's just like through discussions that I was having with friends and things that I was meditating on. And for me, writing poetry is like it's a lot about just obsessions, like I'm just writing notes down constantly, thinking just about different rhythms, and then at some point, you know, you just boil it all down, and at some point there's a poem.

>> Brian: Yeah, yeah, going back to just the idea of comportment, the comportment of black bodies. I think that's an incredibly fraught subject just cause you know, another one of the double standards in America is that like there's no... there's almost like there's not the same kind of double take when it comes to like, Oh, how is a white person acting? How is an Asian person acting? It's like black America has so many shades of like person, you know what I mean? And I think there's expectations not just from without, but within the black community of like, Oh, if you act this way, you're this kind of black person or something like that, you know?

>> Kwame: Well, that But I think even just like more than that, there's just been there's been an obsession, like with this country with the black body from just the time that they first saw black people.

>> Brian: Because they were, I mean, just the way you like people have entered this country

>> Kwame: Right and then sew like control of black bodies and how they move through time and space has been a big thing with the country as well. And so when you have these issues where black people are being shot by the police, you know, in their cars or like in situations where they're not doing anything that, you know, is like deserving of being shot. But it's the sense of fear. And like this, like fantastic quality of the black body in the white mind, that is that is like an external pressure. And so, yeah, it's true, like white people don't necessarily have to... I mean, I think that conscientious why people will think about the way their bodies moved through time and space, like relation to like what's around them, but they don't like, necessarily have to.

>> Brian: Exactly. And there's no immediate pressure to say, Well, oh, you know, I mean, shit, I'm thinking, Have you heard Daytona Pusha T's?

>> Kwame: Yeah.

>> Brian: Yeah, I fucking loved it. Kanye has this line about, like, driving black, and then he says, like maggot hats let me slide through, you know?

>> Kwame: Yeah

>> Brian: And it's like, No, I don't You know, being black is a very unique you know, that no other race or culture in this country, I feel like has to think about that. Except for, you know, Muslim culture definitely has its own issues today, but it's not quite the same history. And so you're so you're talking about in terms of comportment, it seems like there is a very there is a focus on the safety and, like, you know, just the not necessarily within black culture, but, like, you know, just moving through space as a black person, it sounds like when you're focusing on the shootings like that relationship.

>> Kwame: Yeah, the first poem in the collection, there's a line, "Why do niggas in New York wear black? Maybe because we want to hide, to lose our bodies and keep them, to close our eyes and forget it all." And like that's just I think at some point you walk down the street, you know, there's some micro aggression toward you. There's something that's happening. You're seeing something on the news, and at some point, like you just wish you could become invisible. Or you wish that there could just be some release of the idea that you're being marked because of your skin and all the associations that come with that marking.

>> Brian: Yeah, and it's impossible to turn off.

>> Kwame: You can never turn it off. There's this story in Friday Black Collection, which I'm not sure if he read, but I can't remember the name. But the character he starts, he's a he's a black character, and he starts by talking about how he can, like, literally tone down his blackness to adjust to different situations. So, like being on a phone call, he turns the blackness down.

>> Brian: That's what I was talking about. It's like that, that way of carrying yourself because there's even within, there's just so much judgment. I feel like, you know, And I wouldn't know. Yeah, but just, you know, as someone who's tried to imagine, you know?

>> Kwame: Right, Well, I mean, I think that there, I think that, yeah, you can you can allow yourself to feel weighted down by expectations, whether you know, sort of like expectations to act black or expectations to subvert that or to like quote unquote like rise above. And so, yeah, like, I think that every black person is like, maybe not grappling with their blackness, but trying to understand it and I don't know, like, for me, it's not an issue like I live in like a really cool place. Like I live in a black neighborhood in New York City.

>> Brian: Right down the street from us on 147th. Come see us (laughter)

>> Kwame: It's not like I mean, I've been in white neighborhoods before it and just been walking around and just, you know, felt completely like all eyes on me.

>> Brian: Yeah, no pun intended.

>> Kwame: Yeah, but, you know, I think with a lot of black poets, you're going to be, like reading about the way that our bodies move through time and space. You are gonna be reading about grief and loss on and yeah, that's just how it is. Like there are certain people like Ross Gay are trying to write about things that bring them joy. And maybe it's exclusively. And I don't know if I'm there that there yet, but I think that's something that I'm trying to work toward as well.

>> Brian: Yeah. You know what? I really admire that because that's such a hard That's a juggling act. You don't you know you don't want people saying like, Oh, what are you denying? Like the experience we're going through like and now you're just gonna focus on this shit. But like at some point also, it's like I understand the desire to want to feel the same things that other people in this country are feeling, or like, you know, to just have this unadulterated feeling. Like, you know, pursuing this joy. You know, it's not like I'm sweeping this under the rug, but like, I'm setting this down just for a moment, you know? And I think that's tough. I think that's really tough.

>> Kwame: Well, you know, I think that in sort of the maybe like the black American Canon, aside from a few writers and it's starting to change now, I think that was very masculine in a way. So I think that we were sort of raised with people like Richard Wright and Ralph Ellison, who are great writers. But it's always this sort of like, me against the world character.

>> Brian: Yeah, exactly. And that's a lot of like. I think that's especially a lot of like what white people feel in this country. Sometimes I feel like it's even like drama porn, where it's like white people in this country want to read about that from a black writer or something like that, you know?

>> Kwame: Yeah.

>> Brian: And subverting that. Even it's like, Okay, you know, that's that's rife in itself, right?

>> Kwame: What I was gonna say is that but the black female authors have always been the one to focus on the community. And I think shifting that gaze is something that's been really useful to me. I mean, of course, like we all have our obsessions. We all have things that we’re going to write about our experience.

>> Brian: And you can't escape them.

>> Kwame: But I think that the sense of writing about community and building community, and maybe not necessarily making it always about my ego or experience, but more about the greater experience, I think that is a way to find joy than more than just sort of the me against the world character.

>> Brian: Yeah.

>> Kwame: I don't know. You know, these guys don't win. And I think that's a sort of... it's a tragedy that that character will never win in literature.

>> Brian: Yeah, because winning would involved rewriting history.

>> Kwame: Yeah, and in a way. Overcoming a structure that you know is immense. And you're tied to the history of an entire, like place. Entire country, entire culture.

>> Brian: Yeah. Wow. Heavy already.

>> Kwame: Right out the gate (laughter)

>> Brian: Yeah. You read a couple of those poems and some new stuff at the Angry Reading Series. I saw I saw you read. There must be a few months ago now. We've had the lovely ladies from Angry Reading Series on here a couple times. So they're great. Yes. So let's talk about where you come from and how you got here. You know, you were from Massachusetts.

>> Kwame: Yeah, So since this is the biography part we're gonna do, the whole thing is Oh, my dad is Ghanain. And he moved to the States. My mom is from Louisiana, so they met in Baton Rouge and they got married, and I was born down there. And then I moved to Massachusetts when I was, like, maybe four or five, and then stayed there pretty much until moving to San Francisco. And then I was there for six years before moving to New York. And now I've been in New York for six years.

>> Brian: And you went to San Francisco? Was that before college? After college?

>> Kwame: No, I was I went there. I went there for a lot of reasons. I had this, like, kind of. It was a very abstract like dream of getting out of Massachusetts like this dead industrial place.

>> Brian: And we talked about that a lot on this podcast, especially for artists, you know, it's like who feel disconnected, right? You're not anywhere but these, like, select handful of cities where it feels like it's that the epicenter of everything that's going on, you know?

>> Kwame: Yeah. And I was so immature like I just thought, like I thought if I just moved to California, I would become, like, a famous artist. And so I went out there with a friend, like we went out there to play music and I was doing like graffiti. I was such a cliche.

>> Brian: Hey, you know, if Instagram was alive back then that maybe you would have been famous? (laughter)

>> Kwame: I don't know.

>> Brian: Maybe famous for the wrong reasons. I don't know. But we spent a little bit of time before the podcast, and we've had this discussion before, but just talking about the things you went through out there and, uh, you know, you were in a band, and I don't know, is it fair to call it a drug band? That's kind of something, something you associate with it. But at the same time, it was like it wasn't. It was modeled after bands that you said you admire, You know, there's there's an ethos. Or you know, something going on?

>> Kwame: Yeah, Well, I think until, like, b, I guess sort of completely forthcoming. Like, actually, like I was doing. I was doing drugs when I was in Massachusetts, and I...

>> Brian: Were you trying to escape that?

>> Kwame: No. I was just trying to escape like the sense of, like, hopelessness I had, like, I was, like, living with a woman who's like Like, we just like we weren't like right together. It was a weird situation. Like she was, like, married and like that didn't work out.

>> Brian: Do you say you're living with her?

>> Kwame: Yeah. Yeah, it was it was just like a whole situation. I was so young and I was such an idiot. And like at this time, I was, like, really just sort of like up to no good. But also, while kind of being this, like, punk, that was up to no good. Like, I still thought like that in my heart, Like I was an artist. And I was writing.

>> Brian: That's definitely not immediately exclusive. Or else I'd be fucked because I spent a lot of my life up to no good. (laughs)

>> Kwame: Yeah, well, I think that my problem back then was that I thought that doing drugs would bring me closer to that sense of being like a true artist because of the suffering. And so that's a whole… I should have just got a therapist really like, um but yeah, so I just, like, went down a different route and, you know? Me and my friends, we thought we were like renegades.

>> Brian: Yeah, it was It was part of your identity.

>> Kwame: But we were jokers, really.

>> Brian: Is this still back in Massachusetts?

>> Kwame: Yeah and we moved to California within, like, a few months of each other.

>> Brian: Yeah. Do you think, uh, do you think if you didn't have art in, like, some greater purpose or whatever you wanna call it... Do you think you'd still be, like, kind of drilling deeper into that drug hole? What do you think kept you from going down, you know?

>> Kwame: Wow, I don't know. That's a really good question. Sometimes, like, I just think it might be luck. And I think that maybe somewhere in my mind, I always had this idea that I could just, like, turn it all around, like, just decide to, like, do this or decide to do that. And I started, like being involved with the community out there a little bit more in terms of, like, the poetry community and also, you know, I completely... I just, like, started dressing differently like I started, like, dressing up. It was weird, like I just like I just decided to, like, become a different person. And I don't like even dressed like that Any more like that was like, that was like the sellout version of me.

>> Brian: So when you say decided to come to become a different person, where are you at this point? Like both literally and kind of like spiritually?

>> Kwame: I had a really good I had a really good friend, but like, we were roommates out there and he, like, had some, like, really hard times. So I think it's kind of like being a witness to that was it, like, changed me. It changed the way that, like, I saw myself in, like, my responsibility to myself and like, kind of seeing like, like, really like I knew people who died growing up from certain things or like whatever like, But I think like watching someone who's like dying slowly can sort of can really change you and yeah, I just had.

>> Brian: That's what they don't tell you about drugs, is it is like, you know, in DARE class when you're in seventh grade, they're like, yeah, you take drugs, you'll die. You just kind of imagine yourself just like dying. But it's not like that. It's kind of like a time clock where you wait toe, have a health problem or overdose or something like, you know, it's a lot different than they teach you.

>> Kwame: I mean, yeah, it's like you, you know, you pay a price when there's you, like no one takes that ride for free. So yeah, luckily, I don't be doing that shit no more. And, yeah, like I mean it. Like drugs hit hard in Massachusetts.

>> Brian: Yeah. It's one of the especially like, western Massachusetts in the rural areas.

>> Kwame: Yeah. And like the sort of like Worcester area where I grew up, like I remember hearing for the first time. Like of, like, these kids robbing CVS and stuff like that in like Cape Cod.

>> Brian: Getting Oxycontin and shit like that.

>> Kwame: Exactly. And it was OCs and crack. Not to say I never did crack, but like they were just like all these things happening. And you're just like watching everybody around you and like, you know, it's like family friends, neighbors, everyone is just like a zombie. And so it was like I didn't necessarily think about it like that while I was sort of going through it, because I think that there's a way that it's almost normalized to you just because it's the sort of like culture that's around you. But now I sort of look back on it and, like I think about just like it was actually just like a really sad time. And there was, like, a lot of pain.

>> Brian: And you were just, you know, in historical terms, you probably just see in the beginning of it.

>> Kwame: Beginning of what?

>> Brian: Like when you were in Massachusetts. I mean, I can only imagine things were worse at this point.

>> Kwame: Well, yeah. I mean... Yeah, like I didn't necessarily see Well, you know what it was when I started, like, idealized in California as this thing that was like going to save me. So I think that was like that was like, one thing. But then, like we get to California and just like, of course, start looking for trouble and then it was. You know, it's like we're free and we can do whatever we want. And then the next thing you know, like, where you're just, like, really testing your limits. And, um and they're like, they're, like, wasn't much probably that I wouldn't have, like, done or tried.

>> Brian: Was there a, so to speak, come to Jesus moment, or was it gradual?

>> Kwame: As I said, I think part of it was just seeing the way it was affecting the people around me. That was actually I would say, like, really the big part of it.

>> Brian: What about yourself? How is it affecting you?

>> Kwame: Well, it was during all this, like, I was still, like, working and like I was bartending. And probably wasn't like the best job.

>> Brian: I bet it definitely enabled some of that.

>> Kwame: Yeah, we always have cash and you're up late.

>> Brian: And hanging around people that are doing the same shit.

>> Kwame: Yeah, so yeah, it was, um but I guess, like, I don't know, I actually remember walking down the street with... because it wasn't like I mean, like of course, I had my sort of, like, the friends that, I was out there living crazy with, But I also had friends who didn't know what I was up to it all. I had girlfriends who didn't know what I was up to. So in a sense, I was like living two lives and their people who, like thought of me. I'm sure it's just like a perfectly nice guy who was like, well read and well spoken and, you know, just an okay guy. And I remember I was walking down the street with one of my good friends at the time who now lives in New York, and I was like, you know, if I could do it all over again, I think I would go to Columbia and just go for creative writing and yeah, and just, like, try to do it right. And, like, maybe a year later, like I just was like, Well, fuck it, I'll just apply. And I ended up getting in, and so it would that mean that was like a truly life changing moment. Like I cried, you know? It was a big It was a big deal for me because...

>> Brian: It felt like an exit ticket kind of?

>> Kwame: Yeah, completely like, I mean, like, wouldn't have I was, like, happy at this point, but, like, still kind of unfulfilled as a person. And so, yeah, like, I wouldn't have thought, like in 1,000,000 years that I would be like, moving to New York to go to Columbia. So it was Yeah. It was, like, really surprising. I didn't apply to any other schools. And yeah, I ended up having a good time there.

>> Brian: Well, yeah, I guess if our listeners didn't weren't completely buying into your talent yet, then one for one. I mean, no, seriously, uh, I mean, kind of just stepping back, I can relate to an incredible amount of what you just said. Just cause I didn't apply to one. I applied to seven and I only gotten to one. But the same thing. I mean, when I was a teenager, I don't know. I just not to get into it too much I guess, a lot of trouble. Very troubled spirit, You know, all that stuff. And I went out to Seattle and it actually was a big deal. It helped a lot, you know, kind of just having to be responsible for myself, you know, because I went right after college, and but at the same time, by the end of my tenure in Seattle, I kind of saw the same thing happening. Like I had kind of run away from college, just being like a lot of this stuff I'm doing it's just not the same person. And then I went out there, and though I grew up a lot, I also after a certain amount of time without any he's like prospects that seemed to be concretely coming from my writing, you know? I had written a couple novels and, like, you know, it started submitting, you know, blah, blah, blah. But finally my mom came. My parents came to visit. My mom was like, You should apply for an MFA. I did the typical "fuck you mom". What do you know?

>> Kwame: Wow. That's pretty harsh. (laughter) You should apologize.

>> Brian: No, that's not exactly what it was. I was still a kid. Yeah, I was still a kid who was like, you know, you don't know what's best for me or whatever. And then, like, a month later, I was OK? Yeah, she's right. And I started applying. And then, you know, I moved back here, and I mean, like, you know, I can't say that I've, like, ever escaped to myself. You know, that's definitely not true. But I've Yeah, I don't call it luck. Call it that. You know, whatever. You you went to San Francisco expecting a certain thing and even though wasn't the direct effect. You still who knows if you would have been, you'd be sitting here if you never went, you know, And it's the same thing for when I went to Seattle. It's like I had to learn something. I guess I'm not sure quite what it is, but...

>> Kwame: Yeah, well, I think growing up is actually like a big part of it. And, you know, like as men, we're socialized, like, so poorly from a young age. And we're you were sort of taught like we value like all the wrong things. Like we want to be like cowboys and, like, you know, like heroes and stuff like that. And I think at some point, like, what is it? Like our cerebral cortex like forms at, like, a later age than it does for women. So when that finally happens, like however many years later, like, we just sort of, like, start to get things a little bit better. And I think, yeah, like at some point, I was just like, Oh, shit. Like, I think I've grown up a little bit. Like I think I've matured and, yeah, values started changing. And I started, like, thinking about the future. I never thought that I would, you know, like, I'm not I would never live past 25 like that's crazy. And then 30. Now I actually like now, like, kind of like, need to sort of figure out the rest of my life Like how, you know, like, we're gonna, like, sort of incorporate this like literary community into, like, our livelihoods and things like that.

>> Brian: Do you ever still hear the call for some that old stuff?

>> Kwame: No never (laughs). The things that I value in life are like eating like maybe, and sometimes, I something like I asked my friends, Do you like, ever feel like you sort of like, let your like need for or addiction thing that we have, like, you know, like manifest itself, with food or working out or something like that? And I think that like it does, because you kind of have to the value, different things like it's not like the drugs that you value, but it's that feeling that you get from drugs and whether it's like the escape or whether it is confidence or something like that. And so um... you don't need the drug, but, like maybe like somewhere like in your psyche, like you need the sense of doing something that will increase your confidence.

>> Brian: Yeah, like drug makes you feel like you're going somewhere. Because, for example, like you pick up your instrument and you're kind of like fuck and then take drugs. And you're like, Oh, yeah, Like you said, I have confidence. Now I have a direction, like, you know what I mean? And like, you can get that feeling from other stuff. Maybe it's not as efficient as drugs, but yeah, I know what you mean. It's like the compulsion needs to go somewhere and, you know, call it a compulsion. Whatever. That thing it like, doesn't need to go somewhere. And writing does a lot of it, but yeah, I mean, food. Same thing I have same experience.

>> Kwame: With some of my friends it's eating healthy. Some of my friends, it's traveling, you know. So but it becomes this like, you know, this obsession in your life. And yeah, I really enjoy seeing the ways that people are dealing with that because you have you have to, like, just change because and for people who, maybe were drinkers. And don't drink any more like being a bartender. I like people will come in and drink for, like, five or six hours, like every single day. And I'm, like, sometimes think like, gosh, like you could be writing a novel. You could be I mean, like, whatever. Like not to judge, like you know, are like living their lives. But if the people who are drinking five hours a day for five hours for five days a week decide that they're not gonna drink anymore then they're just gonna have a lot of time on their hands. So they're gonna have to figure out some other way of getting by and like, making themselves feel like happy and fulfilled. So, yeah, I mean, that's just... I think that's just a part of growing into, like, another person, or just growing into another way of living.

>> Brian: Yeah, I can relate to a lot of that and yet, but I guess before we move on, uh, it's a good It's a good little launching pad because do you know Monica Lewis?

>> Kwame: Yes, I do.

>> Brian: Yeah, she's She's coming next week, I believe...

>> Kwame: She's amazing.

>> Brian: Yeah, we're doing the whole we're gonna do a whole episode on substance use and mental health and stuff like that.

>> Kwame: Yeah, I mean, that's I think it's like, really brave for people to talk about that. I think, for a lot of people, like or for me, there's still a lot of things that, like I'm processing. I had actually like a situation the other day where I like, kind of thought that, like someone close to me, like, might be back on drugs And it was like it was like a big it, like, really kind of, like, fucked with me. So I was like, their There's I'm still, like processing a lot like I think that like I might even have, in a sense, like PTSD. A lot of this stuff that, like happened. So, you know, like I think, Yeah, like you sort of like deal and process with these things, like as you can, and then to, like, be able to use those experiences to, like, help others is a cool thing to do.

>> Brian: Yeah, you just hit the nail on the head because that's kind of a, you know, and I'm completely... I have no problem with being completely open and honest. But we were talking before we got on today about how it affects other people. And that's already cropped up a little bit in my life. And I'm already I've had I've had conversations with Katie about, like how I should approach this podcast coming up with Monica. And just like, if it were up to me, I would say everything that's on my mind.

>> Kwame: Yeah.

>> Brian: And you know what? I probably to a large extent will, but, you know, thinking about how it affects other people. It just sucks because, you know, I'm trying... talk about double standard. I'm trying to build help build a world in which this stuff isn't taboo to talk about, because it's kind of counterintuitive when you want to figure out these problems but not talk about them and say it's just bad to be like that. And that's the end of the story. Go figure it out by yourself.

>> Kwame: Right.

>> Brian: I don't know. Yeah. Before, before we do move on. Is there Is there anything else you could you want to say about to that effect of like, you know, like you know, you just talk about your friend who you think you thought might have gotten back on drugs or, you know, what else? How else does it affect you in the sense of, like, what? What can you think about and not think about and say and not say, You know, that whole thing?

>> Kwame: Well, I mean, I think maybe like if there is, like, a sense of resistance to the autobiography, I think it's that a lot of people... I think as a writer of color, one thing that you're always fighting in against is the 100%, completely autobiographical read. And so, I was watching an interview with Ocean Vuong on I think was like Seth Meyers or something and like and he wrote this amazing book. I'm not sure if you read it, but it's called "On Earth We're Briefly Gorgeous".

>> Brian: I haven't read it but our producers are nodding their head.

>> Kwame: It's a beautiful book, and it sort of is about a child of displacement and a lot of it, like deals with the Vietnamese war and the migration that came about to the United States because of that on then you know these experiences, like moving through the world as Vietnamese people in Hartford, Connecticut, and like, not being able to speak the language and, like his experiences of being with a queer body in these spaces. And so there's like so much beautiful stuff in the book and Seth Meyers, like, Literally So how much of the book is autobiographical? And I think, like in that way that, like white writers don't necessarily have to deal with that, because I think that they're given the benefit of the doubt that they're capable of creating a story.

>> Brian: Of separating truth from fiction?

>> Kwame: Yeah and I think with women and writers color like there's always the sense that, like it, like, is just like memoir.

>> Brian: Do you think it's also exaggerated when it comes to certain subjects? Because I'm kind of thinking of James Baldwin right now and I'm thinking about I'm also thinking about how people would have reacted today if Giovanni's Room came out. And you're like, You didn't write that from a black characters perspective? But also just more in the sense of like you were just saying, You know, it's like do you think people would have question that based on the subject matter? Like if it's negative subject matter or something like that, You know?

>> Kwame: Right, I see what you mean. Yeah, he did, I believe, say that he wrote it from a white character's point of view specifically so that he could separate the issue of queerness from the issue of blackness.

>> Brian: Almost like he had to prioritize.

>> Kwame: Interesting. Yeah. And that was like, you know, that was a decision that he made that worked out the way that it did. Like Baldwin is, you know, one of the best, but yeah, like, I think that, like, there has to be a certain... there has to be, like, a little bit of yourself that you like protect because, like, there might be, like, certain things that come up in stories that are, like, actually like, based on my autobiography. And there might be things that are that are, like, actual, just complete fiction. There might be characters that are, you know, like five or six different people, just like all in one case. Composites. And so I like I would rather not, like, invite the sort of, like, read where...

>> Brian: Like are people are more concerned with what's true than what the message is.

>> Kwame: Yeah, And when that like, if I am ever to, like, write about drugs or like right about certain situations, I would, you know, I feel like I would like if I'm writing for fission like I want to, like, be able to have that space to turn truth into art without feeling like I'm actually exposing anyone or yet, like, just I don't know. I always think about what certain people might think of when they read my work. And these days, like when I was younger, actually a lot of the stories that I've published over the last couple of years, I never actually thought that they would be published like there were stories from workshop and you write them just because you know you have to turn in a story like you don't you're not like, Oh, I'm going to send this to, like Baum or like the Kenyon Review after.

>> Brian: You know what? I actually don't think a lot of people think like that. And I think that's why you've probably seen a measure of success. You don't have those extraneous motivations. Which is funny. It's ironic because, you know, kind of the point is to fucking get published, right? But at the same time, it's like if you're right and you get published, I mean, it's palpable. If you're writing to finish something and feel fulfilled and to fulfill the hypothetical reader, I think then you're on to something, you know?

>> Kwame: Yeah, there's this song that we would sing in the Baptist Church like the lyrics were seeking first the Kingdom of God and his righteousness and all these things will be added on to you. And so like, I always kind of think about that when I'm when I start thinking about, like, an endgame in terms of like where I'm gonna publish something or what I want the story or poem, or something like that to accomplish because there's really, for me, the whole reason that I'm doing this is because, like, I just like, want to write and I want a space where I can work through these obsessions and things in my head. I forgot where I'm going with this (laughs)

>> Brian: That that's a beautiful feeling because you're you're onto something that's like it's self sustaining. It's not like, you know, Oh, now I'm done. I've done the thing I wanted to do. I got it published. What's next? That question doesn't exist, and you know what?  That question is your writing, whatever. The next thing that you're trying to write is you're working through your existential crises, so to speak.

>> Kwame: Right and I think being an emerging writer, there's always a sense to a lot of the anxiety comes from when your unpublished. There's anxiety to publish and then published in like, you know, sort of like a neat like little like independent journal, and then you want to publish like in a place that is whatever. And maybe you publish in McSweeney's. And so, like, maybe at that point you have, you're like, OK, now I've been validated to like a degree where I don't feel any pressure to achieve anything else and like I can just, like, focus on the writing. And I think that is like, I think before you get to that point, you always have to remember that you're like you're writing just because you're a writer and you're an artist and you're trying to create. And all these things, you know, if you're doing the work like you will be fine, you'll, it'll get published. You know you'll get the book deal. You'll get the agents, like just if you like. Just keep writing and working on your craft. And, all of these things, you'll probably be fine.

>> Brian: As long as you're faithful.

>> Kwame: If you really wife up that game and like, stick to it like you know it will bear fruit like I mean, that's just what I believe. I think everyone has a story to tell. Everyone has a way that only they can tell it. Storytelling runs in like all of our blood. We all tell stories. We all have rhetorical devices that we've like inherited from family members. We all have legends. We all have myths. It's, you know, like every like it's in all of us, like some people maybe tap into it a little bit more. But, you know, I do believe anyone could write a book.

>> Brian: Yeah, yeah. And you know, I'll say that I don't quite believe that if you put in the work, you'll definitely bear fruit. But you know, the world's an unfair place. But at the same time, what we can both agree on is that if you if you're faithful to the craft and you're doing it for the right reasons, you're giving yourself a chance. And if you don't, then you're not.

>> Kwame: Yeah, also I think when I was, like, really young, I would be like, I want a like published novel before this age, and I want to do this. And like Yukio Mishima published when he was 24... Oh, shit, like I'm 25 now.

>> Brian: My bar was always Zadie Smith, which was ridiculous. I think she published White Teeth at 21.

>> Kwame: Like that's ridiculous. So, yeah, I mean, you know, Zadie Smith ism in the literary world, she's like the 1% but she's, like, even, like, higher than like that.

>> Brian: Yeah, she's the .1%.

>> Kwame: Yeah, like, But Toni Morrison published her first novel when she was, what, like 37 or 38? And you know she's got a Nobel. So when I think you're dealing with careers... if you really I plan on having a long career, it doesn't matter if you're 26 or like 31 or whatever. Like if your first novel is a banger and you know people are into it then there's always going to be a demand for you. And I Same thing with poetry like Alia Kaminsky took like, almost 15 years off between books and when he came back, everyone was waiting on bended knee.

>> Brian: Alia Kaminsky's deaf?

>> Kwame: Oh yeah, yeah, actually, that the name of this book is Deaf Republic. It's not like because he's deaf... deafness is used, actually like as like, a device in the book. It's amazing, actually, like it's incredible. And to hear him read is a truly, like religious experience.

>> Brian: That name does kind of like, sound familiar, but I haven't really heard much about him.

>> Kwame: His first book is Dancing in Odessa.

>> Brian: I'm not sure if you're familiar, but I have deaf parents. And yeah, a lot of my characters are deaf and, you know, obviously right about deafness. I gotta get on that.

>> Kwame: Yeah, definitely.

>> Brian: Our producers are signing to me that they were published with Grey Wolf.

>> Kwame: Yeah. Oh, Yeah, he is like, he's a rock star in this game.

>> Brian: Wow. And so when you say when he reads, does he read or does he sign and it gets translated?

>> Kwame: He reads. But they're actually like there are signs in the book for like, certain things gets really like I wouldn't be able to do it justice, but you know, like I'll give you my copy like, yeah, like it's a banger.

>> Brian: My producers are signing that she thinks he's hard of hearing, but, well, to basically to classify that my dad is hard of hearing. So if you take his hearing aid out, he you know, he's pretty much, you know, deaf. But with a hearing aid in, he can. He even spoke to me on the phone a little bit when I was younger, so Yeah. So, yeah, that's fascinating. I gotta check him out for sure.

>> Kwame: He's amazing. it's just such a cool person to be. Actually, he and Kabul Ahkbar bumped into my collective mate at the Strand. And they bought her a book for her birthday. They're just cool people.

>> Brian: Wow. Very interesting. Very interesting. You learn something new every day. Yeah, just real quick before we move on. Just a year point. You know, it's interesting that you talk about Seth Meyers asking whether it was autobiographical. You know, which parts are true, but, uh, you know, because my novel has tons of drug used alcoholism, organized crime, you know whatever. The kitchen sink. The only thing that anyone's really asked me a lot about is the deafness. Like, how much of that is true? Which It's kind of obvious that, like, it's somewhat true just because I don't want to sound like I'm tooting my own horn. But I really do think that, like to write some of this stuff I wrote. You have to be familiar with the with the culture, right? But no one's ever said no one's ever been like, Oh, so were you an alcoholic?

>> Kwame: Yeah. I mean, and sometimes, to me, that felt like a violent question. I think I'm just, like, very sensitive.

>> Brian: Yeah. Understandable. So, yeah, let's talk about Dear Ocean and how it got set up by Human Impacts and everything like that. I really love this idea.

>> Kwame: Yeah. I mean, this is this is, like, such an amazing thing to be a part of, Like, I am an impact artist resident with Human Impacts Institute, so they give us, like space to work. There's like we have a place out on Governors Island. Then there's in the space in the Brooklyn Public Library. I have 24 hour access there, and as a part of the contract...

>> Brian: Well real quick. So this was a residency fellowship?

>> Kwame: It's a residency.

>> Brian: And you said it was six months before we got on?

>> Kwame: Yeah, well, so the amount of time that we sort of like verbally agreed on was six months. But actually, now I want to extend it. I'm just like I'm loving it so much. It's been it's just been such a blessing. And I have been thinking about starting a reading series for like a while, like just, you know, seeing the way that you guys did it. Seeing the way like the Angry Reading Series started and just thinking like I like, I really want to continue to build with my community to contribute in that way. And so I just thought it was a great opportunity to start a reading series and the Human Impacts Institute was like they were totally with it. They were like, We will let you use the space And so they got me a date and yeah, they're like they're totally They're just balling out like they have this, like whole team of of interns who are like these super talented college kids who are there, like so with it, they're in there helping out so much, too. It's like it's just been great.

>> Brian: That's yeah, that's awesome. So Dear Ocean is a climate change based reading series. Is Human Impacts? Because that sounds broader than just climate change.

>> Kwame: Well, so it's like work about climate change in the environment. I wanted there to be a sort of local focus and I don't necessarily mean local to New York. Although, of course, like you know, that's I invite that as well, but I'm more local to your experience. So one of our readers Ariel Francisco is he's gonna be writing or reading poems that are based off of his experiences with climate change in Florida, so I really like that he's gonna be coming from that experience. Someone from New Orleans would be like writing about, you know, like what's happening there. Someone who is from like a Pacific Islands will be like writing about like their experiences. So it's a broad issue, and I think it can somehow, sometimes feel abstract to people. But I think one thing that I hope to accomplish from this reading series is giving people that sense of immediacy and urgency, but without necessarily trying to scare anyone or present a scenario where we're just, like, hopeless and so the work, all the work that we've received so far has been so good, and everyone has, like, such a unique way of seeing the issue and interacting with it. So I'm just like, very, very, very hyped to see where we will go with this. I was so worried that we wouldn't even have enough readers to fill the first readings slot. Not only that, but like we already just like have we have so many. We have so much good work that's been submitted.

>> Brian: You were talking before we got on.

>> Kwame: Yeah, the first couple of days that I had the Dear Ocean email address open, I would, like, check it and, like, every 10 minutes and then there were no emails. And one day there's, like, three emails and I would just, like, come in and come in. And all the submissions were just, like, so, so, so good and yeah, So I'm really excited to see how far we can go with this.

>> Brian: Yeah. No, I, uh I really, really admire that, too. Because, yeah, climate change is one of those paradoxes where it's at the top of everyone's mind and at the bottom of everyone's mind, you know? And I think that's one of the issues. It's feels too big for any single person to solve. And yet we need every single person to get involved.

>> Kwame: I would love if you have any work. Like we The first reading is featuring mainly poets, but I like I don't want to exclude any other genres from submitting, even though we might be like, probably more poetry heavy. But if you'd like, send 3 to 5 poems or other short pieces of work to Dear dot Ocean dot N Y C at gmail dot com.

>> Brian: Perfect. You know? Yeah. When I when I sent you some of them the other day. I think I wrote dear dot ocean dot c y n or something. And it bounced back. So yeah, why don't we Why don't we do a reading?

>> Kwame: Yeah, that's cool. I'm gonna read something new. I think I have it in my head.

>> Brian: Wow. Straight off the dome, Let's go. You did a few at Angry Reading Series.

>> Kwame: Yeah, I like to memorize poems because that's actually how I had it. Like, I will just, like, walk around and just repeat anything I had. And so it helps with the flow and stuff, but... So this is a poem that is like, I think, trying to write toward that place of joy, but also the work that I've been doing is connected to, like, this sort of like, other stuff, too. So this poem ends or begins with the last words of the first poem of the Unbnd Verses.

>> Brian: Okay, awesome.

>> Kwame: Yeah, and it's called "They'll Ask You Where It Hurts The Most"

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You can read Kwame’s poetry in his latest collection our from Glass Poetry: The Unbnd Verses

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>> Brian: Beautiful. Before I close it off real quick, I didn't say this episode's brand of fuckery is brought to you by insomnia. So fuck you insomnia. Okay, so that's it for today's episode. If you like what you heard, please subscribe in review on whichever platform you're listening. You can get in touch with us on Twitter, Facebook & Instagram at @AnimalRiotPress or through our website animalriotpress.com. This has been the 25th episode of the Animal Riot Podcast with me, your host Brian Birnbaum and featuring Kwame Opoku-Duku.

>> Kwame: What's up Karisma!

>> Brian: What's up? (laughter) And were produced by Katie Rainey, without whom we would be merely two of Shakespeare's 1000 monkeys banging on a typewriter.