Episode 21: I’m Trying To Tell You I’m Sorry

June 6th, 2019
Hosted by Brian Birnbaum
Guest: Nina Boutsikaris
Produced by Katie Rainey

In this twenty-first episode of the Animal Riot Podcast we welcome Nina Boutsikaris, a writer of prose with ambitions to start an arts residency near her home in the Hudson Valley. Nina is the author of the recently released I'm Trying to Tell You I'm Sorry from Black Lawrence Press, from whose breathtaking pages she offers an excerpt--but not before we embark on discussions surrounding what it means to write candidly about conflicts involving family and friends, her experience as an MFA student at the DFW's begrudging alma mater, Arizona University, and her long-awaited, highly-anticipated foray into fiction--coming in 2021? Tune in to find out! 

>> Brian: Welcome to the 21st episode of the Animal Riot Podcast brought to you by Animal Riot, a literary press for books that matter. I'm your host, Brian Birnbaum. We're here today with Nina Boutsikaris, author of "I'm Trying To Tell You I'm Sorry", coming out tomorrow. Woo. Everyone say woo.

>> Katie: Yay.

>> Nina: Woo. Well tomorrow, today. Not tomorrow when this podcast comes out.

>> Brian: Yeah, that's true. That's a good point. Very anachronistic.

>> Nina: May 1st.

>> Brian: So tomorrow is May 1st as we record this. So May 1st. So it will be out. It's coming out with Black Lawrence Press. Nina is a writer of things nonfiction ish with more than six years of experience as a private coach, workshop leader and writing instructor for adults and college students. Also joining us are our lovely producers, the Katie Raineys coalesced into one.

>> Katie: Hey.

>> Katie: Hey, we're 21. Animal Riot is legal to drink now.

>> Brian: Yeah, that's true. 21 episodes.

>> Nina: Well I'm having a beer right now.

>> Brian: Yeah, Nina is having a beer. I've had some kratom... Okay, so this episode's brand of fuckery is brought to you by kratom. Kra-tum, kra-tome, call it what you want. Me and my boys, we like to call it kra-tum and its extended from there. I've had myself a bit of it an hour and 1/2 ago. Feeling froggy as fuck.

>> Katie: I had a little too in my protein shake that Brian is forcing me to drink.

>> Brian: Right. Because Katie doesn't eat enough. So yeah, And if you want to know more about it, check out the beginning of episode seven or just listen to the whole episode during which I properly dismantle the FDA's crusade to protect their precious opioid industry. Right, guys? That's not what we're going to talk about today. Let's talk about other shit. Okay, so your book is coming out tomorrow. I just read the first few pages, and I really wish I had gotten a chance to read the whole thing. I was fucking turnt man. Like I thought it was awesome. I was, like, 10 pages or something.

>> Katie: Yeah, you are gutted from two sentences in.

>> Nina: Thank you. Yeah, you should read the rest of it because it's different in every section.

>> Brian: I'm gonna buy it, though.

>> Nina: Yeah, buy it. You should buy it today because today is the last day pre sale and this is the only time when I get a commission from the book. So if you want to buy it, buy it today.

>> Katie: Oh, let's buy it right now.

>> Brian: Okay, Let's do it. Let's buy it on the air.

>> Nina: I've been pushing it on Instagram all day.

>> Brian: Beautiful.

>> Nina: I have 12 books left to meet my goal this morning. So maybe we'll make it by tonight.

>> Katie: Well, you're going to get to two right now.

>> Brian: What was your goal.

>> Nina: I think it was like 150 or something. Yeah.

>> Brian: That's not bad. Damn.

>> Katie: Yeah. You did pretty good.

>> Nina: They have this nice commission system where I actually get a little bit of money from in this first month. And then after this month, it's like, whatever, it's a wash. There's no money for me ever again.

>> Brian: Oh really?

>> Nina: Yeah. I mean, it's very small.

>> Brian: Oh I see. So there was like a cap on, like, how much money you can get?

>> Nina: No, no, it's not that. It's just such they set up a system that my particular press set up a system where if I sell a certain amount of books within this one month time frame because that money will go directly to Lawrence's press and not through some Amazon or whatever, that I'll get a much bigger cut.

>> Brian: Oh so a bigger royalty?

>> Nina: I get like a real commission.

>> Brian: But you're still going to get a royalty after?

>> Nina: Yeah. But very small. Let's be realistic.

>> Brian: I was going to say you got a raw deal there. That sounds good. That's a cool incentive.

>> Katie: Yeah, and a really cool press.

>> Brian: Yeah. Yeah, I like that. I was We've been thinking about waste incentivize our authors to kind of, like, pound the pavement.

>> Nina: Yes. That's a great way to do it. You can make a little tier system and be like, if you sell this many then I'll give you this much.

>> Brian: That's good. I was thinking in terms of like social media posts and like, appearances. But that's way better.

>> Nina: Yeah. You want to sell the books. Yeah.

>> Katie: People do better with an immediate ask. Like right now you said you had 12 left. We're getting two.

>> Nina: So I think you guys pushed me over the edge. I'm hoping.

>> Brian: If we are the 150th buyers, do we win a prize?

>> Nina: I'll send you a postcard from Great Hudson.

>> Brian: Awesome, that is satisfactory. Okay, well, let's start with who you are. I guess, how you became the person we see before us. Sorry, listeners. You cannot see her but...

>> Nina: I'm wearing all black. And I have blond hair. Yes. Oh, I who? How did I become this? I think one of the really important things to know about me and I think it's sort of part of the book and part of why I maybe have no shame when it comes to my writing.

>> Brian: Which I very much respect.

>> Nina: Thank you both. My parents are actors, and that's just what I grew up with. So for one thing, they have, I think a really they have a high tolerance for, like, reading stuff that I write, or at least just keeping my mouth shut about it because I think they have some understanding that, like, Well, she's going to do her thing, she's going to do it, you know, whatever. They're not defensive about it. They don't like, confront me about it so far.

>> Brian: When you say confront, are you talking about quality or the type of material.

>> Nina: No, the type of content.

>> Brian: Which is what I wanted to get in on a little bit.

>> Nina: And I mean, I've written in the book later, I think once you get into it. But there's a little bit of stuff about my mom and, she and I, you know, have a very complicated, ultimately like, wonderful, loving relationship. But so much of what I'm interested in writing about has to do with some of the tension that exists between us and just between mothers and daughters in general, which is, like, actually next project thing. Not really so much in here, but yeah...

>> Brian: Hmm. Uh oh.

>> Katie: I hear you Brian.

>> Nina: But they've been pretty good about that. I think that that kind of like I could have done acting, but I was very much discouraged from that. And so I did writing instead, and it's sort of similar in a way, I think.

>> Brian: Yeah, Yeah. Acting... both of those air hard as shit.

>> Nina: Yes, extremely hard. A hard life. Like you're kind of just like waiting for validation at all times. You just hate yourself, and then you're really high. And then you really low. And you just never know what might is coming from, which I guess is very similar to writing.

>> Brian: Yeah, I think I think they are somewhat similar despite how different the art forms are. But yeah, that waiting game is just really hard for people. It was really hard for me. How long did you work on yours?

>> Nina: The book? So I basically wrote it in grad school. I went to the University of Arizona.

>> Brian: MFA?

>> Nina: Yeah.

>> Brian: You said, what up DFW earlier. So there you go.

>> Nina: Well he hated it there.

>> Brian: So you know a little bit about him? Is that what you're saying?

>> Nina: A little bit.

>> Brian: He doesn't have like, a statue?

>> Nina: No. They don't talk about it that much.

>> Brian: Because he shat on it a lot.

>> Nina: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but I loved going. I loved it.

>> Brian: He was a very depressed person. So you know...

>> Nina: And that was a long time ago. But the program's very different now. I don't know, did he study fiction or nonfiction?

>> Brian: I think fiction. I'm pretty sure it was fiction.

>> Nina: Yeah, well, the nonfiction program is great. That's what I studied. Yeah. So I wrote it there, and then I took me maybe, like, a couple of two years, you know, I don't know. You know, I've been writing my whole life, really is the truth. But I finished the first draft for my thesis, and then I revised a couple like once. And then I started after I graduated, and I started sending out agents to see.

>> Brian: My novel was my thesis as well... obviously a massively truncated version average version. But a lot of you know, everyone there is like, you know, the piece is probably not going to be the book. And when I would just like, no, fuck you, it is.

>> Nina: Totally. I kind of had the feeling like I need to just get this out and I need to be able to, like, move on. But something has to happen with this. Otherwise, fuck.

>> Brian: I kind of felt like that. But was it because like, you were sure that it was of quality? Or was it just like it's like, kind of more of a selfish, like I just put a lot of fucking time into this. Or not selfish.

>> Nina: I think I was like I was really proud of like most of it, and I think I felt like I was just doing... I was like there was nothing else that this could become like, This is what it was going to be. And if nobody was going to accept that, then at least I could just... like I guess I didn't I wasn't like it's going to be published, but I was like, I have to try to get an agent. I have to try to get it out there and if not, then I'll just publish all the pieces individually in other magazines or something like that. But I felt like, Yeah, I guess I just felt like this is what it's going to be. It's not going to revise it into something new. So if it's not going to work as this, then okay, whatever. I'm I'll just move on.

>> Brian: Do you think there was going to be a point where if you didn't get any bites, you would have actually moved on? Where do you think you dug deeper into the whole? (laughs)

>> Nina: Yeah, I don't know.

>> Brian: Because that's tough for a lot of writers.

>> Nina: Yeah, I ultimately got rejected for like, a while. I guess we could go back to that, which is that, like the agent that I have, who I love. She was like, really excited about it. And she really kind of gave me this feeling that like, Oh, no, we're going to get it in Penguin. We're going to get in a Random House like you're going to be the next. It's going to be like Emily Books. And everybody was super positive about reading it, but ultimately there everybody kind of had the same feeling like the structure's too weird, and I really know to do with ending.

>> Brian: So even agents don't realize that the Big Five will not take any risks? Well, looking back when I had an agent a few years ago, three, like, three years ago, it's ridiculous to think that he would have put it where he said he was gonna put it. And he told me that I might get, like, a $50,000 advance and shit. And I was like, ok. That's great.

>> Nina: And she was so unenthusiastic. I've never expected to make money from writing ever. I just never... especially the kind of stuff that I do, which is, like, very I just don't really care about, like, traditional narrative arcs. I'm not interested in it.

>> Brian: Music to our ears (laughs)

>> Nina: I don't like reading that stuff that much anymore. So I was like, Whatever. Maybe, like, you know, some cool indie press will like it. And ultimately, I found a little place for it, so yeah, it is where it needs to be.

>> Brian: But are you still happy that you have an agent?

>> Nina: Yes, I am because she set me up for a really nice next move because people that read the book that liked it were like, send us her next thing. And I wouldn't have been able to do that without her. So who knows what's gonna happen? But at least I feel like she could be like, remember, You know, when I sent you that other thing from that person? So here's a new thing. It's something, you know, it's some leverage.

>> Brian: Yeah, for sure. And I feel like agents can in some capacity, help with, like, publicity and just connections, stuff like that, You know, or getting an interview.

>> Katie: But ultimately you got it placed at Black Lawrence, right?

>> Nina: That's right. We were at the end of ourselves, our sub list, and everyone was coming back with, like, these nice excuses...

>> Brian: Yeah, it's raining outside (laughs)

>> Nina: Yeah, it's raining and cold. Yeah, I just submitted it to Black Lawrence, and then she just called me like I don't remember how long later. And she was like, I love it. I love it so much. I was like Sure, yeah. So it was me in the end.

>> Katie: And when was that? How long ago was that?

>> Nina: Oh, my God. So long ago I was in. It was in 2017.

>> Katie: 0h, wow. Yeah.

>> Brian: So it took two years to put together?

>> Nina: Yeah, just because they have a long queue. It's a very small press, and they're doing so many books. Way too many books.

>> Brian: How many books are they doing a year?

>> Nina: Actually, I don't know. But a bunch. Even like now, You know, two years later, whatever it is, my book is like late. It should have come out today, and it's still...

>> Katie: You probably read with and I mean, you read for Animal Riot within that two years.

>> Nina: Yeah.

>> Katie: So you had this book deal since then? My God.

>> Nina: It's been a minute. So that's why I kind of feel like whatever. Let's just fucking move on. I hope some people read it and like it. Actually, that's the other thing I think is a really big blessing about how being published by any press. It's like, unlikely that people are going to write scathingly bad reviews, because what's the point? And no one cares.

>> Brian: Yeah, I think I've brought this up on the podcast before, and we had Dave Olympio on recently and he who runs Atticus Review. I used to rave reviews for them. So did Katie and there was a book that came out of the small press and I thought it was garbage (laughter) and, like, I wasn't purposefully mean a view, but I'd like I said my piece and like, they wouldn't publish it. Unless I like, changed it and toned it down. I was like, Honestly, it's not worth it. Like just don't put it out there. I don't care.

>> Nina: I mean, I just feel like it's like people that, you know, when we publish our books of these partly small press is like we're not getting anything from it. It's not like getting in the way of anyone else, so I kind of feel like if it's great then fucking tell everyone about it. If it's not then don't say anything.

>> Brian: I have a couple thoughts, first going back to how long it took to publish it. Did you find that beneficial, though, because you had a lot more time to look at it and just kind of so, so good already?

>> Nina: No. I was so done.

>> Brian: When did you graduate from Arizona?

>> Nina: In 2015, but in December. I was there an extra semester.

>> Brian: And did you start working on it while you were there or before?

>> Nina: I finished it at school pretty much. I mean, I revised it once after I graduated. Just I add a different parts and, you know, but basically it was the same. And it's about a time my life that is long gone.

>> Brian: How old are you?

>> Nina: I'm 32. This book is about the time period, mostly in the middle of the book, which is the main, like, chunk of the narrative arc, if there is anything like that, I was 22 23 24.

>> Brian: Wow. Yeah, that's yeah, that's distant.

>> Nina: I think when I wrote it was the perfect amount of distance to think about it in the way that I want to think about it. But now I'm just like, Okay, I'm ready to, like, write something else.

>> Brian: Yeah. I worked on my novel for six years. And I started. I think I started, like, three other novels in between drafts and I just abandoned them all because, like, I'd go back to it and...

>> Nina: Did any of the stuff in your trial's end up in your main one that you were working on?

>> Brian: Like the novel I was working on in between? I don't think so.

>> Nina: Did they benefit you in any way, do you feel like, with the project that you're really focusing?

>> Brian: They filled time (laughs) and flex my muscles and, like, you know, exercise them and stuff. So you know, I mean especially like now with starting Animal Riot, I used to be an everyday writer. It's not even one of those things where like, I'm disciplined, I'm going to do I just did it. I wanted to do it for hours every day. Yeah, and it's also a testament to help that I was when I started, because now I'm finally here. But but But now that we started Animal Riot, it's just like both of us have had trouble finding time to write. So lucky for you, you're just the writer. That's good.

>> Katie: Just the writer?

>> Nina: I've been teaching.

>> Brian: It's good, it's good.

>> Nina: I mean, a lot of my time gets taken by adjunct teaching but I just quit my adjunct job. So now I have no job.

>> Brian: Oh, I was going to ask you if you did supplement like your editing services and stuff that I saw on your website.

>> Nina: Oh, God, yeah. I mean, that's nothing. I mean, it's very small. My main job is that I teach at the New School. I teach for Eugene Lane College. The undergrad writing classes. But yeah, I'm moved to the Hudson Valley. Not to get too much into my bio, but I just moved to Hudson Valley, like last year.

>> Brian: Where?

>> Nina: To Hudson, New York.

>> Brian: Wow. How far is that?

>> Nina: It's two hours on Amtrak.

>> Brian: Wow. Wait. So you came all the way down here?

>> Nina: So I've been teaching at Eugene Lane and staying with my mom in Brooklyn from two nights a week. And then I go back up on Wednesday nights, and I'm there the rest of the week, and I come back. The plan, ultimately, it's like, never come to the city again on just fully live up there and make a life there. So I'm trying to figure out now. I mean, ultimately, I want to start a writer's residency. That's my dream. So I'm trying to figure out that right now and like, get my claws into the community and, like, figure out what to do with that. That's my goal.

>> Brian: Woah. Dibs on the first year.

>> Katie: But also, I just want to back up a little bit because you said you're just the writer. I mean, being a writer for a small press is not just...

>> Brian: I think you're taking it a little too...

>> Katie: I know. But I do want to call that out. And I think you both should talk about that a little bit, because being a writer for a small press does mean taking on more responsibility.

>> Brian: Yeah, I know what you mean. You're saying that basically like you gotta do a lot of work yourself. And that's and that's what we and that's what I was talking about like that. We want to incentivize our writers to do the same thing. But the thing is the What's the word? I'm looking for the... fallacy, I guess that like if you go to a big house then they're going to do all this extra work. But the thing is like you could get mid listed And then like, though you'll get a little bit of publicity for the 1st 3 months on, then it just falls off.

>> Nina: I mean I used to work in the publicity, like before I had a breakdown and went back to grad school. It's such a joke like... sorry for those working in publicity. But they don't really do anything. I mean, they can't do that much, And they have. They usually have so many books and so many titles and the things they come up with to like Have You Do as the author, which I did as a publicist, is like not useful.

>> Brian: Oh wow. We're gonna have to talk to her because we just sunk a pretty penny into some publicity.

>> Nina: Well, if it's a firm like a private. Sometimes that's useful.

>> Brian: We'll flip a coin. We'll shake the eight ball.

>> Nina: You should test it out.

>> Katie: That's essentially what we're doing with the first book is seeing a seeing how it goes. And it's also publicity for the press.

>> Nina: I think that's good. You do need somebody for your whole venture to like help you guys. But like individual authors, it's kind of a crap shoot.

>> Brian: And for our theory, is kind of like if it doesn't translate into direct sales for this first book, like at least we'll learn something. If it does work for the press, you know, hopefully in the future.

>> Katie: So you are a publicist before this, So did that set you up a lot for your first book and knowing, like where to go and who to talk to.

>> Nina: Not really. Because the kinds of books that I was criticizing were not anything like what... I wasn't even doing like literary books. I was doing like a lot of home and garden and lifestyle, like cook books. It was mostly, it was a lot of like I was setting up authors to have interviewers or to like, be guest bloggers. And I'm not an expert on anything except myself, so no one cares. So, you know, I was not Yeah, I'm not really set up for that. I also I don't really care. I'm kind of like I'm just not expecting anything. I'm just kind of like That's what This is my first project. I'm like I'm published it great. It's a notch on my belt like I'm ready to move on. I feel like as a writer, you just have to constantly be the kind of writing that I'm interested in and the kind of writers that I know that I how I understand writing to be is like You just have to constantly be sort of like an amateur, someone who's just like, excited by the new thing and like trying to figure it out. How do we do it and like working and just keep your head down rather than being like, What's this going to bring me? Because it's not going to fucking bringing me anything.

>> Brian: It's a lifestyle. It's not like, honestly, yeah, people want to get paid and like, yeah, they want to have their shit read. But the thing is like if you if you hinge your hopes on that, you are completely fucked unless you're one of the lucky few.

>> Nina: Totally and a lot of people are lucky.

>> Brian: A lot of people aren't lucky (laughs)

>> Nina: Well enough to have many blogs dedicated tow talking about their work. But yeah.

>> Brian: Speaking of nontraditional narratives, let's do a framed narrative. Yeah, we can talk about the book a little bit.

>> Nina: Yeah, I'm going to read, like, a part from the middle that I haven't read in a long time or maybe ever. I just I'm so bored of hearing the same section. For some reason, I keep going back to the same section because it sort of feels like it encompasses a lot of what the book is about. I'm really bored of reading that. So I'm going to read something else.

>> Brian: Yeah, I know what you mean, though it's really hard to find the right thing to read. But you're not in front of an audience now, so you can read whatever the hell you want.

>> Nina: You know that's true. I guess it's just because of the nature of the structure of the book and, like, basically, I'll just tell our audience. It's a memoir in collage essays, so even that sees themselves are like collage. So sometimes it's hard to read it in sections without someone thinking that the next thing is going to be about the same thing.

>> Brian: Real quick. I'm just curious. Have you been on a big book tour? Have you been doing a lot of readings around the city?

>> Nina: Yeah. I mean, I'm setting up some stuff. I'm setting up pretty much everything on my own. I have some friends in San Francisco, writer friends, and I have, like, my, you know, Tucson, Arizona school. So I'm doing like a West Coast thing.

>> Brian: That's what I'm going to do. My book is set in Seattle where I lived there for a couple years.

>> Nina: This is when community matters, right?

>> Brian: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Did you did you do your research?

>> Nina: And should out to Devin Kelly. He is the master of community making. I really am so impressed by him.

>> Brian: He is great, but she's also great.

>> Nina: And Katie (laughter)

>> Brian: Didn't you hear me about her being an engine?

>> Nina: I did. I did.

>> Katie: That's so sweet. Thank you.

>> Brian: I love you, Katie. (laughs) That's on the air. Everyone knows that.

>> Nina: Yeah. So I made him calm, pulling it together. And then I'm going back to my undergrad, Ithaca College, in the fall to something there. I'm doing an event. A couple events in Hudson this summer, which should be really fun. There's a really great reading series. They're called volume reading series by Holly Goodman. She runs it. Tally Goodman. That's going in July. I'm doing an event with two other women.

>> Brian: You best believe Katie's writing that down.

>> Nina: Yeah if you guys want to come up to Hudson valley then July 13th is the time to come.

>> Katie: Oh cool. We might.

>> Nina: This woman who runs the reading series of really great.

>> Brian: What's going on in July 13?

>> Nina: I'm going to do this reading.

>> Katie: We come up to Cold Spring very often.

>> Nina: Oh cool. Okay.

>> Brian: That's where are our second book is. David Hollander, our old thesis advisor at Sarah Lawrence.

>> Nina: Oh I know that name.

>> Katie: Yeah, his book is the next one coming from us.

>> Nina:  That's so great that you guys are helping each other out like that.

>> Katie: His book is brilliant.

>> Brian: Yeah, he's like a prodigy Yeah, he lives up in Cold Spring, and I don't know what I was going with. We love him. Hi David.

>> Nina: It's just really strong literary community there on arts, community, and everything.

>> Katie: That's a perfect place for a writing retreat.

>> Brian: That's great. That's good to know, knowing that David's up there like it's going to know that we'll have a lot of resources up there. But thanks for letting us know about that. And I think it's really cool that you're living up there.

>> Katie: I used to teach up there.

>> Nina: Really? Where?

>> Katie: In Cold Spring. I taught some creative writing classes to fourth graders.

>> Nina: Oh fun. I'm trying to make it work.

>> Brian: Okay, well, let's do it.

>> Nina: All right.

==================

The copy of the excerpt is pending publisher approval but the book can be bought here:

https://www.blacklawrence.com/im-trying-to-tell-you-im-sorry-an-intimacy-triptych/

==================

(clapping)

>> Nina: Thank you.

>> Brian: I really wish we published your book.

>> Katie: Your book details are just Dora the Explorer fruit snacks. I would say to my kids, What kind of fruit snacks are they? And they'd be like Dora the Explorer. And why did the author do that? Because you remember it. I don't know just anyway. It reminds me of my kids. But your details there really like they stick with you like that.

>> Nina: Yeah, that's that's good. I mean, I feel like that's what I'm interested in writing. That's why I've always loved writing to begin with this. I'm just obsessed with watching people I'm thinking and attention to things and docking and recording. I'm sure you both feel the same way.

>> Katie: You're really good at picking up on those little things that people do that are just that are just stick with you and and weird good. I know. I'm a writer. I don’t have word's (laughter) What's weird good?

>> Nina: Idiosyncratic?

>> Brian: Yeah. Idiosyncratic is a good way to put it. That's definitely not quirky. You're operating on a very melancholic yet, almost like, like peremptory like you have, like, an evil streak going on, you know? And you know what I'm thinking right now is like, I'm looking at you, and I'm like, I don't think you're the same person you were the person you're writing about, and I guess I'll ask this now. When you talked about the book before we got on, you referred to you in the third person.

>> Nina: Yeah.

>> Brian: So is there anything well, Is there like, a divide between that person? The person you are now or like What is it?

>> Nina: I mean, yes, I know. I mean, I think like one of the things in the book that I'm trying to explore is that, like, I am like, all these things. I mean, there's a particular part of the quote from Marina Abramovic, the performance artist, and she says that this thing about like she has a these parts to her and she sort of is scared. She's scared. She's like a lonely child. She's also kind of this, like a bad person. And then she's also kind of like, full of wonder. And this, like spiritual person who's like high above all those things and I really relate to that, particularly, as like a woman and a woman who has dealt with a lot of like identity issues surrounding like body and sexuality and look sort of being able to, like, remove yourself from that but also like own it but also realized, like how you're playing a part in a system that ultimately is not helpful to you. Takes power away from you, right? The imagined idea that's giving you power in some way.

>> Brian: Did you not think that you were at all subverting that system? Because I feel like a lot of women feel and, you know, I mean people probably feel this in general, but somewhat beholden to like other people, I mean, like, totally you do kind of seem at this point your life seemed to be compartmentalizing your empathy because you're so aware of what this person is thinking and what you're thinking.

>> Nina: I have a lot of empathy for her. I mean, I think that I that something that writing has given me the gift of being empathetic to everybody that I write about, and I hope I never I mean, there's a lot of people in this book. I don't name anybody, but there's a lot of people.

>> Brian: Every other person is like...

>> Nina: There's one person named, But it's a fake name.

>> Brian: What about your mom?

>> Nina: I call everybody just like the actor or my mom or the man or the boy.

>> Katie: I like that.

>> Nina: Yeah, I don't It's not about like it's more about It's about the girl in area and about her. And ultimately I participated in this world in the way that I participated in, and I'm interested in that I'm not ever interested in like, look what this person did or how they were. Ultimately, I'm just interested in excavating, you know, holding a mirror up to myself and up so that I can see there's just like Roca line... it's not Roca. Anyway, it's like if I hold up the mirror enough, it will turn into a lamp or something. So this idea that, like, if I could look at myself closely enough, it would illuminate something greater.

>> Brian: I can't tell you how much I appreciate and admire that perspective, because it is very easy, I think, as a woman to let the grievances pile up to the point where it's very hard to do that because you can get so angry.

>> Nina: And I was really angry.

>> Brian: It seems like used that anger at that time in a way that was like, I mean, yeah, maybe you hurt a couple people, and you were hurt too. But at the same time, like, it sounds like you were subversively participating in this system that talk about.

>> Nina: I think I was always, like, intelligent person. So I think like some part of me was always like trying to make sense and like, think about my life. And I think that's what makes not saying I'm like some amazing writer. But I think like thinking about your life is ultimately the first step in, like writing good nonfiction, creative nonfiction. But that's comes from personal experience or even just any kind of writing, really.

>> Brian: I mean, you are a very good writer. I came to write it like one of the things that got me addicted to writing was the basic just turn of phrase like, Can you do something new with language and like, you clearly do that. I'm going to butcher this. But one of my favorite phrases in that piece, in that segment that you just read was, ah, something about it was right before you said a sugared sleep.

>> Nina: Oh, yeah, Second piece of pie.

>> Brian: Yeah, the second piece of pie that was such a good metaphor for something that you'd like don't want. Yeah, I don't know. That's why I can't wait to read this. And I am very jealous that we didn't find it, but we weren't. We didn't exist at that time.

>> Katie: At the same time, you say that you're holding a mirror up to yourself. There is like an insidious streak, especially like the men that come through. I mean, you just can't help but feeling, And I guess particularly to the atmosphere that we live in with MeToo. And the echoes of that. Well, my first question is, Did you get to pick the title? Did you pick it?

>> Nina: This was my title. I came up with. Yeah, and it's so funny. The publisher, she was like, We can do whatever you want. We can change anything but not the title. The title is like, amazing. And I was like, Okay, great.

>> Katie: It is a really good title. And so that's so, Yeah, I don't even quite know what my question is because while I feel the examination of yourself happening at the same time, there are like very insidious things that are not overtly like spoken. No one's like you said, you're not calling anyone out in it. You still feel what's going on and you still feel intentions, whether the readers just putting that on to other people and so I'm guessing, like, how do you as the writer feel about that?

>> Nina: I mean, writing isn't therapy. You know, personal writing isn't therapy. Personal writing should just never be that. So I guess I always just like you know, I would always talk about my narrator in the third person, everything I always write about myself. But she always is a particular persona of myself, right? It's like never just me. It could never be that way. So this particular person, this particular person of this particular girl in this story, she both loved and hated everything that was happening to her and everything that she participated in. And so I'm really interested in that. And I guess that's the title is both like, sarcastic and genuine, right? It's like, and you know, I think I don't know how to write.

>> Brian: Sarcastic or ironic.

>> Nina: Not sarcastic. Yeah, ironic, because like I'm not fucking sorry. And like also I am. But what is she sorry for? I mean, there's so many things. So many layers. Like, who's actually the one saying, I'm sorry, in here?

>> Brian: So what about the third person thing you were doing? Does that tie into it?

>> Nina: I don't know. I mean, probably, yeah.

>> Brian: Did you make a principal decision to talk about you in the third person?

>> Nina: No. That just happened naturally.

>> Brian: So it is consistent then?

>> Nina: Yeah, yeah. I would never say like I.... No, no. It's always just a bit removed. Once it's on paper, it's a character and it's removed from me. Otherwise, I don't know if I could do that kind of reading. They do. All my work is very much like it's very honest. Sometimes graphic or at least doesn't hold anything back. So once you put it down, I'm like, Okay, this is an interesting thing. And this interesting character, like, what is she gonna do? What's she gonna think? And so then I tried to like workers from it from there. Rather than like what happened to me?

>> Katie: Yeah. Do you write poetry at all?

>> Nina: No.

>> Katie: Because it's very lyrical.

>> Brian: Yeah, it is.

>> Nina: I mean, this is the kind of writing that I love. Like that's influenced me. I mean, I love I love the essayistic poetic border. Like writing that is like on the edge between those, um those kinds of where the Where the style takes over the plot. So hopefully that comes through.

>> Katie: Yeah, totally. I mean, it's definitely got like this... I think a lot about Ottessa Moshfegh.

>> Nina: I was just reading her book right now. In my bag.

>> Katie: Yeah, but really "McGlue". The other books are less lyrical than that.

>> Brian: Which one are you reading?

>> Nina: "My Year of Rest and Relaxation"

>> Katie: Oh, I have not read that.

>> Nina: It's her third or fourth?

>> Brian: Okay. What was "McGlue"? Was that her first?

>> Nina: I haven't read that.

>> Brian: "McGlue" is like a masterpiece.

>> Katie: You can read that in a day.

>> Brian: I think I did read it in a day.

>> Katie: Yeah, it was her first Novella that she wrote out of school and one like the Fence prize? And then maybe, like Hemingway Prize?

>> Brian: Which is funny because, like, it kind of does remind me even though they're no nothing alike. And, you know, most women would probably shoot me in the face for saying this. But the book itself, as like an artifact, reminds me of "Old Man And The Sea" in the sense that, like it's this at Sea Book and like, it's this short little novella. But it's nothing like that. I mean, it's very funny. It's extremely lyrical. I highly suggest you check it out.

>> Katie: You're talking about "McGlue"?

>> Brian: Yeah.

>> Katie: I thought you were talking about Nina's book. I was like, is it funny?

>> Nina: Actually, it is funny. It's weird because, like depending on the audience, we'll laugh. Like when I had the section that I read for Devin's offsite event, it was like non stop laughs. I've never had that before. It may have been how I was reading it. And there are some parts that are more sardonic.

>> Brian: And once a few people are getting it in the audience like my shit is like, subtly funny sometimes. So, like it's either I'll get, like, these little chuckles here and there from people that are probably like listening more. But then, like sometimes it's like I have this one, this one part that I read a lot when I'm at readings and like it usually gets it, you know, you're a pretty big kick out of it.

>> Nina: It's good to get a laugh of a reading. Better than not, I think.

>> Katie: That's a really interesting thing, because I think there are lines that I pick up as like I find amusing, but I don't think I was laughing out loud because I'm so focused on this other lens and what's happening that I think it's just really interesting. Now I'm gonna go back and finish it and see if I can, like, switch that lens. It's cool just to see the way different people read things too.

>> Brian: And from what I can tell, I mean obvious again. We're talking about this at length and, like, you know, we've read, we've read a few pages and then we just heard you read. But at the same time, it is really refreshing to get, like, a different perspective on, like a woman's struggle in the world and like, you know, like there's just a strength there that you don't hear a lot and I wish I heard it more. I do wanna walk that I want I want to walk that back a little bit because, I mean, there's plenty of women writing, like, really, like, you know, writing a lot about their strength and like, and stuff like that. But, well, she's very, but you're also you're also talking about how it was used to a fault to like, you know, it's not just like I got...

>> Nina: Right. She's manipulative.

>> Brian: It's not like I just got over this like, you know, trauma or whatever, which is, like, really important to write about, of course, but like I don't know, I just I love that It's a two way street because we're all humans. And really the problem is like that. We are just so flawed and like way. We really do have to look at everything in order to solve the problems we're going to solve.

>> Nina: Yeah. And I think everyone's just, well, one of the things I'm most interested in writing all the time is just loneliness and, like how people can just never fully know each other. And you can just There's just this recurring theme and everything. I write about it in this book a lot like just a desire to connect, or this desire to be known, or to be seen. And what we do to feel known and feel seen, even when we know we're not actually being known or seen. And that's so interesting to me, and it will never not be interesting and everybody's in that game.

>> Katie: So I'm wondering I since you started talking about like, you know, the names and everything this has been on my mind like what has the reception been and have you heard from anyone?

>> Nina: Yeah. I don't know yet. We're going to see.

>> Katie: Well I didn't know if there are any essays were out.

>> Nina: A lot of essays are from the book. A lot of it was published before, but who is reading that? Other than my writer friends or my parents.

>> Brian: That's what I was curious about. I mean, you know, we talked a little bit before we got on the air, but I'm really interested to see how people react to that kind of stuff because I've already I mean, you know, my parents or some of my biggest readers and they've are I've already been a couple of like, Oh, well, you want to talk about this? Everyone is going to know?

>> Nina: Well it's interesting about my parents being actors, and so I feel like they inherently have to understand, or they try or they back, like your understanding that I'm like doing my quote unquote art. And that's how I'm doing it. And you know my mom, and when she learns a script, or when my dad reads a script they're writing in the margins stuff about the people you know, if she's in a scene where she's fighting with a man then she's writing my dad's name in the margin, you know, she's like, she's like bringing it back to her life to think about... they're divorced. They're not together. So, fighting with Nina's dad. Fighting with my husband.

>> Brian: Right, bringing up the real emotion.

>> Nina: Exactly. And that's the same. That's something that if she can't see why I'm doing that to think about truth then she's ignoring her own art. So I think that my parents see that and they understand it and they, you know, they'll say, like this was extremely sad. That's what they say. Or this made me very sad or like I'm very glad you're OK now. Like things like that. But other than that, they're just very supportive.

>> Brian: But there is a difference between her writing stuff on the margins of a script that she's only going to read it and, like, you know, everyone reading it, you know?

>> Nina: Yeah, you're right. That is true.

>> Brian: So you should be very scared now (laughter)

>> Nina: We'll see. I hope everyone's okay with. I can't write non fiction and be like do other people want to weigh in?

>> Katie: Yeah because then they will and then you're writing gets torn apart and you can't publish anything. And you know what? You have to speak your truth.

>> Brian: Totally true. You can't satisfy everyone and honestly like, yeah, I'm also fascinated by the fact that, you know, ultimately, you know, stuck in our own heads and stuff and, like, I just think it's... bringing it back to disclosure. It's like you might not like it, but I felt it regardless. I experienced it regardless, like that's not going to change anything and like, you know, it's always fascinating to me. Like as humans it's like, there's so much judgment that just gets thrown around. It's like, I mean, talk about the mirror.

>> Nina: Yes, it's very it's liberating in a way, and but again, not therapy. But I think this is the way I make of what happened. This is how I see the truth. And this is what I'm interested in thinking about and talking about it. Sorry, if you're not.

>> Katie: So what's next?

>> Nina: So I'm working on something that might actually become fiction (oohhhsss). Yeah. I don't know. I've never really written fiction before. I just don't know how to make things up. I've never been able to do it.

>> Katie: That's easy.

>> Nina: It's not easy.

>> Katie: You get used to it.

>> Nina: Nonfiction writers will understand it's not easy. But I've been writing this sort of like auto fiction thing that's about basically like what it means to be a creative person in a world where, like the word creative is like a noun now. Like a creative. And how that in, like this very modern sort of late capitalist age, there's a lot of like isolation happening with like individualism. And like these people are the creative, like trying to figure out where you fit in a someone who isn't just like working in advertising or like, you know, selling stuff basically. It deals with a lot of similar themes, but one of the main things is like starting to realize that like, see, the girl is like starting to see her mother, who is an artist and has been an artist her entire life, through these new eyes. She's starting to realize, like what it means to try to live a creative life. So that's kind of like what happened.

>> Brian: Is this character your age, or is this like a younger?

>> Nina: It's me last year. Yeah, I was right after I got out of grad school. I couldn't find a job for, like, six months, and I was just writing about it all the time. I was just writing about, like what it would be like when I would go on interviews and what it would be like when I would answer job posts and all these poster asking for writers. And they want writers and they want creative people, this and that. And I was like, I'm that. But I'm not that. So what is this? Like what does this mean? I was really interested in trying to explore this idea of, like, the creative class and like this myth about that. And yeah, that's kind of what I'm interested in.

>> Brian: The cosmos are forming some singularity now because...

>> Nina: What is it?

>> Katie: You're getting Brian so excited over here.

>> Brian: (laughs) Well I was going to bring up our last podcast. We had Lynne DeSilva Johnson (Elae) who runs the Operating System. And they were great. And they were talking a lot about... They call themselves a creative practitioner, not a writer or an artist, because they think that it just kind of just gets suffused across all types of creative endeavors, you know? And then a few days later, we're working on a book with one of our new writers Annie Krabbenschmidt. I met up with her and she starts saying a lot of the same stuff. I gotta hook you up with just Elae.

>> Nina: It's in the air.

>> Brian: Yeah, I guess. Yeah, but what I'm most curious about is why fiction instead of nonfiction this time?

>> Nina: Because I like the nonfiction part. Everything in it is like real and true from my life. But it's just going to be like, very conflated in a way that I'm not comfortable with calling it non fiction anymore. Like I'm fine with like some playing with time and characters and stuff. But like this would be too much and not enough like the way it ends in my life or the way that what happened in my life is not, like, interesting enough to know what I think the story should tell.

>> Brian: Totally. Right. I was basically asking if, like you wanted a more fun plot or something more fun narrative.

>> Nina: Yeah, exactly. It's really the plot. Everything is going to be coming from...

>> Katie: Fiction is addicting. You get in it and you're sucked in.

>> Brian: It's funny, though, because I've been writing fiction for years and I just got the nonfiction bug like hard core and I'm like, I'm in it. Well, yeah, because one of the reasons I wanted to know about like, just any of the sexual or like drug aspects of the book that I might read about is because, like, I put out a couple of essays that kind of sparked unrest, you know, with people that I know and love. And so, yeah, going into that whole world is scary.

>> Nina: I think, like maybe the way that I write is a little bit... there's a theory that I have, but I think that there's something in, like my voice that doesn't really allow for people to say things to me like, Oh, are you okay? Or you really did that?

>> Brian: It's a strength.

>> Nina: I feel like there's something where I'm like being so like investigative about the situation, that it's like there's not room to be... Well, I don't know. I guess we'll see in the next couple of months. But it feels like in the past, when I write things people are just like, Oh, they're not concerned.

>> Katie: The in the way that it sounds like your family or friends were concerned.

>> Brian: Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. And I mean, with regards to your writing, I see what you're saying. It's like there's this paradox where it's very matter of fact, and yet it's at the same time, so lyrical and adorned. That's a pretty good contrast.

>> Katie: I was just thinking, and you're saying that I was like, There's a dreamlike quality that I feel like removes people a little bit, so maybe that they might not. But also, it hasn't come out yet.

>> Nina: Yeah, we're predicting the future. When this podcast comes out, it will have been out in public for a bit.

>> Katie: We'll have to do a follow up in a few months.

>> Nina: Oh God.

>> Brian: For sure. And we'll definitely put it on our channel's to help you promote and stuff like that.

>> Nina: Thank you so much.

>> Brian: Of course, of course. I mean that what you were talking about community. I know I'm so glad you brought that up. And Katie is too, for sure, just because, like, that's really our that's our mission, really. Like collaboration and community is... the reading series is where this comes from.

>> Nina: It's really generous that you're doing a podcast and a press at all knowing what the energy that you have to put into it and the amount that you get back.

>> Katie: I mean, it's pretty fun though.

>> Brian: It is fun.

>> Katie: We get to sit here and have this conversation with you, and that's awesome.

>> Brian: Yeah, I was just messaging with someone who is, You know, another writer who's like, Like, how are you? And I'm like, tired. But, you know, this is an incredible experience.

>> Nina: Yes, if you feel energized by your tiredness then that's good.

>> Brian: Yeah, yeah. So, like, you talked about the writing community up there. Have you ever run a reading series or anything?

>> Nina: No. But when I moved up there last summer, I linked up with this woman who runs a this really awesome arts collective called "In Star Lodge". It's a nonprofit space where they get a couple artist to fill up the rooms. It's like this beautiful old house in Germantown, New York. Then there's a big community space, and there's a kitchen. And she started basically like the wing, but, like for crunchy upstate people. So it's like a women's wework space. So all these really cool women are. They're working on their different projects and we get together like once a week Or, you know, a couple times a month. We talk about what we're working on and through that I launched, like a writer's workshop series. So I taught adults this winter at that space. Which is so fun, like, you know, a world away from teaching college kids.

>> Brian: Yeah, because they want to be there.

>> Nina: They want to be there and they're so smart and their writing is so good and they're so generous with each other and like that's a common saying we have to show their work. And that was my first thing I did by myself, and I'm hoping to start up again in the summer. But that space has been, like, really important. All the women there have been so important to me, and I'm working on a collaboration with two other women right now to create this event that we're going to do in June at this space. It's gonna be like me reading and her dancing in this other woman doing her video stuff. So it's it feels like, very alive right now up there and now that I'm not gonna be in New York City, I have time to really, like, commit to the place. And that's like my goal because I think it's the most important. It's like the more you can give opportunities for people to like, You know, as you all know, the more you give opportunities people, the more you get opportunities from them. It just works like that.

>> Brian: Yeah, I've been talking about this so much recently. How I do think people are coming to realize that, like if you reach out to other people, it's only going to help everybody.

>> Nina: Everyone wants to be thought of and wants to be included, and if they're too busy, they'll say they can't. And then whatever. You thought of them. I think it's all I ever want to do is just right toe authors on Twitter and tell them how much I love them and how much I just feel...

>> Brian: Are you in the writing community hashtag?

>> Nina: No, I fucking hate Twitter. (laughter) But I go on there sometimes because I feel like I have to say some shit about my book or I don't know.

>> Brian: Yeah. Do you hate social media in general?

>> Nina: Yeah, I only have Instagram and Twitter, but I wouldn't have Instagram even because it's not good for me. I unlike you, I'm not disciplined. I have to really force myself to do it. So if I have anything on my phone like that, I'll just look at it and I have to I have to delete it.

>> Brian: That's exactly who I was until we started Animal Riot. Because I like, I need to, like, help promote our stuff. I would not be on any social media if it was not for like, networking. Don't get me wrong, I don't think it's all bad, but I do think it's a net negative in terms of like...

>> Nina: You could be writing instead of posting a thing about something. You could be actually doing work that's going towards something. So I don't get it.

>> Brian: So you're all about community and stuff, I guess. What's your approach to it? I mean, you kind of already, like tangibly said what you do, but were we on the air when you were talking about wanting to do a residency?

>> Nina: Yeah, so if anyone has a space for rent in Hudson Valley that they're thinking that would be good for a residency, let me know. I'm down to invest.

>> Brian: Well, what would be your idea?

>> Nina: I would want it to be a place where we could have people come stay. Like, you know, ultimately would be free. Ultimately it would be a nonprofit with grants.

>> Brian: But that's I was about to ask. Are you going to get grants?

>> Nina: Yeah, that's so hard. Now it is even more so than ever was. I'm sure you both know.

>> Brian: Another conversation we had with Elae the other day.

>> Nina: Yeah, but, I mean, I'd love it to be a place where people could come stay and work. But also that visiting writers could come and host their own readings or do workshops, so we'd have, like, names coming in. We have places for people to come share their work. I could bring my friends to read their books and some of their books and then also people becoming and sleeping, you know, sleeping overnight for multiple weeks or whatever. I loved the times that I spent at residencies have been really useful to me. And I also see things about them that I would want to do differently. And that's really exciting to me. So yeah.

>> Katie: That's cool.

>> Brian: Yeah. I really hope I really hope you do that.

>> Nina: Thank you. It's a couple years down the road. But I'm like the gears are turning, so Yeah, I hope that's what happens.

>> Brian: Yeah. Do you live with anyone now?

>> Nina: I live with my boyfriend.

>> Brian: So has he read it?

>> Nina: Oh yeah.

>> Brian: Was he an actor?

>> Nina: No, no, he's not a writer. Which is great for me.

>> Brian: What's his deal?

>> Nina: He works from home for a nonprofit consulting company, so it works really great for us for living up there. He's a musician on the side, you know? He plays music, but it's great because I don't ever... He's just very supportive. He's never like, you know, that essay was weird. Or like that sentence wasn't... He's just like, this is amazing.

>> Brian: And you like that?

>> Nina: Um yeah. I don't need my partner to also be my editor. It has not worked for me in the past (laughs)

>> Brian: The very first class I ever took at Sarah Lawrence was Melissa Febos'.

>> Nina: Oh, cool.

>> Brian: You know Melissa?

>> Nina: Yeah.

>> Brian: Did you read "Whip Smart"?

>> Nina: I read parts of it but I also teach you the Gotham Writers workshop and she has taught there too.

>> Brian: Oh wow, you got your hand everywhere.

>> Nina: Yeah.

>> Brian: One of the first things she said was like, your partner shouldn't there be a writer. And in group therapy the other day, one of the members there was just talking about how, like, you know, they're so happy they're not in the same field and stuff.

>> Nina: It worked out for Joan Didion. A lot of people, Virginia Woolf.

>> Katie: But not everything worked out great for Virginia Woolf.

>> Nina: But she was on her path no matter what (laughter). But I'm too weird with my intimate relationships for them to be also judgemental of my work. I have to be really stable. Otherwise, I can't. It wouldn't work. I have to feel really stable. Maybe we'll see in the book what I'm talking about. It's like insecurity that I don't need to deal with.

>> Brian: Yeah. And I figured you were you had a partner, you're married, or something. Because who goes up to live in the Hudson Valley alone (laughs)

>> Nina: I've been wanting to do that for so long, And then it just serendipitously my partner was, like, ready to go up to. And I was like, Great, let's fucking go! I'm really grateful for that.

>> Katie: Did we say where people can follow your work?

>> Nina: Follow my work?

>> Katie: Like your website. Which is a beautiful website.

>> Nina: Thank you. I made it myself.

>> Brian: It is. Is it...?

>> Nina: It's Squarespace. You guys should get sponsored. Sponsored by Squarespace.

>> Katie: Save us money.

>> Brian: We've said that but nothing's happened. Nobody has sent us money.

>> Nina: Once you get more followers then you'll get something. Yeah, I'm on instagram but I don't really post about my writing there. I mean, I post links to my writing on Twitter. A little bit on my website. Just constantly updated with whatever I'm doing.

>> Katie: It's http://www.ninaboutsikaris.com/

>> Nina: Yes, it's phonetic. Kind of. (laughter). You can look it up.

>> Katie: Thank you so much, Nina, for being on with us today.

>> Brian: Yeah, this is great.

>> Nina: Thank you so much for having me. This is my first podcast that I have ever done. I'm very excited and honored and so pleased to be part of this community. This Animal Riot community. Even though I didn't go to Sarah Lawrence.

>> Katie: We have grown beyond Sarah Lawrence. But I mean we love our school. Also crazy essay that came out this week about Sarah Lawrence. More to talk about after.

>> Brian: Yeah. That could be its own episode.

>> Katie: Go get Nina's book, "I'm Trying to Tell You I'm Sorry" from Black Lawrence Press. Buy it.

>> Brian: After this podcast, she'll probably get about a 15 to 20,000 copies sold. (laughter) That's conservative.

>> Katie: Yeah.

>> Brian: Okay, that's it for today's episode. If you like what you heard, please subscribe and review on whichever platform you're listening. You can get in touch with us at on Twitter, Facebook & Instagram at @AnimalRiotPress or through our website www.animalriotpress.com. This has been the 21st episode of the Animal Riot Podcast with me, your host, Brian Birnbaum, and featuring Nina Boutsikaris, and Katie Rainey, our lovely producers. And we're produced by Katie Ranney... which is somewhat tautological but true... without whom we would be merely three of Shakespeare's 1,000 monkeys banging on a typewriter.