Episode 2: I Have To Pee
December 10th, 2018
Hosted by Brian Birnbaum
Guests: George Sawaya, Devin Kelly & Jared Marcel Pollen
Produced by Katie Rainey
Transcripts by Jonathan Kay
The Animal Riot literary machine rolls on, corralling into our rabble of fuckery one Jared Marcel Pollen (in addition to Brian, George & Devin), who is this side of the Mississippi's writerly version of Morrissey. In this second episode of our podcast, we examine the literary industry, including its current state and future prospects, while taking occasional sojourns into the realm of metaphysical kitsch the likes of Egg McMuffins, subdued BDSM, and the limits of the human bladder.
>> Brian: Okay. Welcome to the Animal Riot hour brought to you by Animal Riot, a literary press for books that matter. Before we get started, just a little reminder that Animal Riot is set to launch in January. We'll be throwing parties in New York Seattle Little Rock and Baltimore which will include readings from excellent writers, Animal Riot swag, and the release date for Emerald City, a book that I wrote. Okay so we just did introductions and had technical difficulties so now we're gonna do introductions again starting with Devin...again.
>> Devin: Yes, hello. I am Devin Kelly. I am a writer and teacher living in New York City. I am the co-founder of the Animal Riot reading series and a graduate from the Sarah Lawrence College for liberal studies.
>> Brian: Very liberal.
>> Jared: That's good. That was much less begrudging than last time.
>> Devin: Thank you.
>> Brian: All right Jared, say the thing about the fish and your mother again.
>> Jared: Well my mother is a fish.
>> Brian: OK.
>> Jared: My name is Jared Paul. I also went to Sarah Lawrence College Class of 2015 with all the other fine gentlemen you hear on this podcast. I'm Canadian by birth and at the moment I'm currently living in Prague.
>> Devin: By birth? We're going to have to unpack that...later.
>> Brian: Yeah...Canadian by birth...
>> Jared: Naturalized birth. I was popped out on Canadian soil (laughs).
>> Brian: Alright. George.
>> George: (laughs) I am George Sawaya. I am a novelist and poet who also went to Sarah Lawrence with these fine gentlemen, including the Canadian. I am currently - I am currently serving three years in Florida because my girlfriend is in their MFA program. So I've been pacing the muggy swamp dongle of our country for about half a year now though my sentences are pitiful. It's slowly winding down. I'm making marks on myself with a tack that I've managed to hide from the guards which down here are just.. yeah just alligators. They're the guards so there you go Roll Tide Roll. Time will tell.
>> Brian: That was a...that was a novel right there. There's something there. There's a lot... Well I am Brian Birnbaum. I'm co-founder of Animal Riot and the resident rider of coattails, for all these people who created everything for me that I don't deserve. And I also went to Sarah Lawrence College and got my degree in fiction, class of 2015. Let's raise our beers for a little cheers everyone. And Katie, because Katie is our lovely producer of this beautiful podcast here. Also a Sarah Lawrence grad so it's all in the family. So okay moving on. Now we must introduce our challenge.
>> Devin: (sighs) Yes.
>> Brian: Okay. The challenge.. the challenge is this. It's very simple. This brand...this hour's brand of fuckery is brought to you by, I don't know, I want to say "moderation"?
>> Devin: Here, here.
>> Brian: So yeah moderation. So we're just going to drink beer and not be allowed to piss until we're done this podcast. I don't know. Should we have a rule on how many beers we have to drink?
>> Devin: At least, I was gonna say six.
>> Brian: We only have 12. And Katie's having one.
>> Jared: I feel like I'm at a slight advantage because I'm drinking whiskey and it doesn't pass the system nearly as speedily as beer does.
>> Brian: That's fine. That's fine. Cheating is acceptable. Okay.
>> George: I already have to pee and I'm not even drinking anything. (Devin and Jared laugh) But that's what I spend most of my time doing is peeing. (laughs)
>> Brian: Anyway. So. OK. So today we're gonna talk about the literary industry that great monolith that every writer beats their head against. So we're gonna start with - what is the present state of the industry? What do we think about it? Where's it going? Where is it now? What are its prospects? Devin, you go.
>> Devin: Great. I think the literary community... rather the industry, sorry. The literary industry is doing exactly what it's supposed to be doing. And it is doing a fine job of that. I think being a writer, an active writer in this moment can at times feel frustrating especially if you are writing a kind of prose, or I think mostly prose, which is what the industry makes money on, that is concerned more with art than sellability. I think the industry is part of capitalism and capitalism often makes the idea of art a hard thing. Often we'll create an art that's sellable rather than art that some artists might be able to sort of respect or get behind.
>> Brian: Anyone else wants to chime in before I berate everything about the system.
>> Jared: Yeah well the literary industry, much like any other industry, is at the mercy of the market. Even the industry itself obeys what it believes the market is calling for and guiding them towards. Based on my experience talking with people in the publishing industry, the logic is very circular. If they don't think a book is worth investing in, that's because they have no reason to believe that anyone is going to buy it. But there's really no data to support that because there are plenty of examples that we can think of where books that no one expected to do very well became very successful and that the standards of saleability became redefined. I think we see this all the time with books that were sleeper successes or sort of grower successes like "The Empathy Exams" or "Leading the Atocha Station". These were books that were published by small presses and now those writers have been picked up by mainstream presses and are being paid much larger figures for their work. And previously the industry had no confidence in those writers. So it's a question of getting the right kind of attention for this work which I agree that there is this kind of dichotomy between sellability and artistic value. But the challenge becomes getting the attention to the extent that the industry will want to pay attention to.
>> Brian: Yeah. I also think there's something you said in the beginning - investing in the writers right and that's actually kind of like the mantra of Animal Riot. That's what we want to do is invest in our writers because there's kind of no point in picking up a book that you're not going to invest in. Because I understand what you are saying essentially that says you know sometimes I won't even pick up a book because it's not worth investing in. But I see the, you know, the so-called mid list on so many, you know, press imprints, you know, the bigger houses etc. They basically pick up books and then don't publicize it, and you know, that's not even circular thinking it's kind of just this like this road to nowhere. That makes no sense to me.
>> Jared: Yeah the apparent imperative seems to be very much on the ROI and not off the growth of the writer. There was a time that publishing houses invested in writers. I can’t remember which publisher it was, George you might know, would pay Bukowski something like thirty five thousand dollars a year to produce books for them and he was a contract writer essentially for that publisher for the rest of his life.
>> Brian: Yeah. And that's another thing we've been thinking of.
>> Devin: Wasn't that Black Sparrow? I don't I don't think there was a big press which is fascinating as well. I think it's a good example. San Francisco, maybe “A City Lights”, I think is a San Francisco press that just sort of invested in him. But it's a good example. The bookstore has a press I think but it's a good example of how it's possible to invest in your writers. I mean I'm not a huge Bukowski fan but it's a good example of how -
>> Brian: He was a shit. (laughs)
>> Devin: Yeah (laughs)... if you don't like you can you can create an example of investing in your writers even if you're not part of the mainstream industry. I could be wrong. I mean but I do think that the people who published him were not huge publishers.
>> George: What a brilliant model that is. Though, I mean like, this idea of patronage because I think really we could all agree that all we really want to do is write and make a living off of it. It doesn't have to be like that like you know I don't think any of us are after Stephen King money or you know Garth money. Garth Risk Kohlberg money. I mean that would be great. But...
>> Brian: I thought you said golf money.
>> George: Golf money?
>> Brian: I thought you said golf money. I was like yeah I'm ready to fill the links.
>> George: Phil Mickelson money?
>> Devin: Phil Mickelson. Tiger Woods, that Tiger Woods spectacle.
>> Brian: John Daly. I'd be the John Daly of the literary industry, that's John dish. (laughs)
>> Devin: It's a niche...It's a very niche reference.
>> Brian: No...no one should watch golf. Don't worry about that. (everyone laughs)
>> Devin: Well I think any or all any writer really wants, perhaps... I will say what I want. What I would want as a writer is the security to write my work and know that it will have an invested publisher and the... I would like to be taken seriously as a writer by at least a handful of people.
>> Brian: That brings up a good point. And I have this is kind of like our next bullet point. We can blend into this one because we all have our own personal experiences with the industry. But you should. Devin, you talk a little bit about yours just considering the fact that I think it's kind of incredible that... basically Devin has a book that a lot of presses are interested in and yet it seems like they're only interested in it if he has another one ready behind it.
>> Devin: Yeah I... well as I think that I have a book in the works of essays and I've gone through the experience of trying to sell it along with an agent. And it's that experience is fascinating because you realize that it's not always about the quality of the work. It's sometimes... she will pass on it because the the work is not extremely relevant to the moment - which is understandable though frustrating. And...but I am in the situation now where like the book is not viable on its own but I have had people say that they would be interested in the book if there was another book to offer with it.
>> Jared: And what about it is not viable?
>> Brian: Yeah that's my question.
>> Devin: What about my work and...
>> Brian: What would the other book do? This so-called second book that you release due to make the first book viable other than give you a platform.
>> Devin: From what I know about the industry there's the sense that maybe it proves to the publishers that you can write a second book so that they're not risking an investment just on one. But from what I do know about the industry is it's simply a way, I think, for publishers to get you right to books for the price of one. It seems like that is the main reason two big deals are not unheard of. I mean, I think that they might actually be the norm now that especially if you have in fiction, if you have a story collection that is quite hard to sell unless you have a novel attached to them. Especially like a finished novel or the bulk of a novel and like that gets to Jared's point, I think, with the idea that like your point about sleeper books and books that surprise the industry. Like what was Carmen Maria Machado book's "Her Body and Other Parties"? Like isn't it still on the New York Times bestseller list and she doesn't have a novel.
>> Brian: My question is... yeah.
>> Devin: It won the Gray Wolf Prize for fiction or something. Gray Wolf picked it up and announced....
>> Brian: Well to your first point, because I fail to see the efficacy of deciding how a book is going to do before you even try and put it out. And in wanting to pick it up in the first place but that's the conversation we're having now. But I'm also curious and do you think that book or do you know if that book blew up on its own merits without so much publicity firepower before it did ? Did they throw their, their uh, weight into it and then it kind of blew up, you know.
>> Devin: Well Grey Wolf is an indie press that essentially is a big press masquerading as an indie press at this point.
>> Brian: Bigger than Coffee House I would say.
>> Devin: Yeah. And I think books like... Jared you brought up "Empathy Exams". I think that books like that helped usher it into the sort of national conversation and I do notice with Gray Wolf that there are certain books that they sort of push. I also don't know if she had an agent or you can hire a publicist. Like really push...
>> Brian: That's why I asked you a question.
>> Devin: … push the book out there that...
>> Jared: I believe that Gray Wolf no longer accepts unsolicited submissions so that's an indication that they've reached the next level.
>> Devin: Yeah
>> Brian: Yeah right.
>> Devin: But I mean I've heard nothing about it. I haven't read "Her Body in Other Parties" but I've heard nothing but good things about it. And I think more so regardless it is a testament that like a story collection can sell which is there is a myth attached to publishing. I think now that people don't want to read story collections. They want novels.
>> Brian: Well that's what Jared’s got a collection coming out with Political Animal. What's their imprint called? Crow's Nest?
>> Jared: Crow's Nest, yeah. It's an imprint at the University of Toronto Press but the success of some short story collections by writers that we do know are established out there in the past couple of years show that there is no basis really even based on this kind of market logic that short story collections don't sell if you look at a book like "Train Drawings" by Denis Johnson or "10th of December" by George Saunders which was a huge success. I believe "10th of December" was nominated for a Pulitzer. And then Alison wrote a couple of years ago won the Nobel Prize for her work and she's exclusively a short story writer.
>> Brian: I guess my ques...
>> Jared: Yeah I don't know where publishers and agents alike because most agents in their biographies sometimes will have a disclaimer saying "I don't accept poetry or short story collections. It's not even on the menu". So I don't know where that assumption comes from that people don't want to read short stories.
>> Brian: Yeah I mean the reason I brought that up is just basically because, for example Atticus Lish, what's that book called again? Uh "Preparation for the Next Life" from Tyrant. That book blows up out of the blue but then in starting Animal Riot and starting to reach out for a publicist to work with us, we realize that Lauren Surrand - I hope I'm pronouncing her name right - she works with like several notable authors and she's pretty big if she made that book by herself, you know, is that really like a sleeper success? You know what I mean? What does that mean like who's putting their book in and then they're deciding "oh this is good enough to get publicized"? You know, all that?
>> Devin: Yeah. I like your take on it George. Like what do you think it's fair what's happening now in the industry? I think maybe and what is the role of the artist in this industry is the role of the artist to navigate the industry?
>> George: It shouldn't be. I mean we talked a little bit last podcast about how if you want to be a writer it's sort of the cheapest thing to get into. You just need a piece of paper and a pencil or a finger and a patch of dirt outside. You can make your markings, you know? But when it comes to succeeding within the industry there is this sort of, I mean, I think this gatekeeper system that doesn't exist in any other sort of viable commodified artform. I don't think that it finds a counterpart in music. I don't think it finds a counterpart in cinema because cinema is just the same players. You know, it's not like people say "oh everybody's got a novel” and then nobody says "everybody has a feature length film in them", right. It's...it's a different undertaking. (Devin laughs) So here we are we're able to to get into the craft with almost no overhead investment but when it comes time to disseminate what we create, we find ourselves sort of loitering in the shadows of these great towers where these clattering machines pump out page after page and we sort of have to audition. And it's certainly not a meritocracy. I mean we know that personally, right? We know that just because a book is good, a novel is good, a poem is good, a collection of short stories is good... Genuinely I mean generally means next to nothing. Honestly it gets you one eye worth of attention and then you've got to dance and start talking about market viability and timeliness and these other things like "you've got one book, you've got another?" You know, like what times are these where we have to sell these like I like a BOGO, buy one get one, you know like they should just come wrapped together with a ribbon. There seems to be so little service paid to the writer of late and I think that's because as a creator we have fallen in steam. We're not, you know, we're not looked at like artists because these great publishing houses have overcommodified the product and have now... you know, just because you make it doesn't mean anything honestly unless you want you're gonna go win some awards or unless it gets picked up to be turned into a movie or unless you're writing about boy wizard's, sparkly vampires, really subdued BDSM etc.. Right. There's just not a lot. (laughter) There's just not a lot that the public seems thirsty for...
>> Brian: Soft...softcore... softcore BDSM?
>> George: Yeah, yeah.
>> Brian: Is that possible?
>> George: Yeah gentleness. Yeah, yeah. Tender buying a single shell.
>> Devin: I think we should all whisper that into the microphones....
>> Brian: Wait, but the thing is if we have...
>> Devin: Tender.....BDSM (chuckles).
>> Brian: Yeah, no...if you have videos and then know if you have softcore BDSM. OK so do you guys watch Billions? Has anyone seen Billions?
>> Jared: No.
>> Brian: Giammati's character, on Billions, is into that shit. Yeah. Okay. So he's into that shit. So like I can see that they don't show, like you know, penetration. Is that like, subdued BDSM? George where have you experienced subdued BDSM?
>> Jared: I think he's referring to "50 Shades of Gray".
>> George: That's exactly it.
>> Brian: Ha ha ha, okay.
>> Devin: Well actually can I... I would like to play devil's advocate to your point George which I wholly agree with but I know some disagreement is palpable. No that's wrong.... some disagreement is given... There's far too much agreement. Yes we simply cannot be a chorus of just gentle anger. But yeah let's bring out the like... Well your point about... Like who are we to complain or... This is my devil's advocacy... Like who are we to complain or judge. I have seen...I saw "A Star is Born" a couple weeks ago which is like a multi million billion dollar film and quite enjoyed my time. Yesterday I ate at McDonald's for breakfast and lunch and Popeye's for dinner.
>> Brian: Wow.
>> Devin: And did my divine duty of participating in McDonald's breakfast.
>> Brian: Did you get wet. Did you at lunch... Did you get breakfast again?
>> Devin: Yeah. I got an egg McMuffin and a hash brown at 4 pm I got a four piece... I got the buttermilk tenders.
>> Brian: Wow
>> Jared: This is demoralizing
>> Brian: What is the literary version of that.
>> Jared: Yeah. Yeah, right.
>> Devin: The Popeyes number three the chicken tenders the egg McMuffin. Like what. What are we putting out? Well I think the Egg McMuffin is like Harry Potter. I think it's somewhat good for you. It's not that bad for you.
>> Brian: I might take offense to that because I actually really like Harry Potter.
>> Devin: But maybe Harry Potter is wrong. I don't want to... I don't want to offend that large...
>> Brian: Jared has got something to say. What.. What do you do? Yeah.
>> Jared: Say that very large and rather prickly community. (laughs) If you... if you look at the three... if you look at the three, as far as I know, best selling books since the beginning they are the Harry Potter series...
>> Devin: This is good data
>> Jared: ...Da Vinci Code and Fifty Shades of Grey. Only... only one of which is any good, and those are the Harry Potter books.
>> Devin: Ok.
>> Brian: Thanks for saying that man.
>> Devin: And at some point maybe today we should all talk about what we mean by "good".
>> Brian: So no. Oh this is perfect...
>> Devin: But you named three things.
>> Brian: So let's assign them to each. So yeah. OK.
>> Devin: Then actually...
>> Brian: I would say the McMuffin is Harry Potter because I think that's the only quality thing there.
>> Devin: Well I might. I actually did I... retract... I think Popeyes is a fine establishment.
>> Brian: Yeah, you and George.
>> Devin: It does exactly what it's supposed to do and it does it as well as it can (yawns) and you aim to be the Harry Potter.
>> Brian: If you've ever carried a briefcase, a Popeye's made cardboard briefcase of fried chicken, you haven't lived...
>> George: That's true.
>> Brian: ...or you haven't descended into the true depths of...
>> Jared: Far be it from us to slander Popeye's. It's been good to all of us.
>> George: It has.
>> Devin: I think 50 Shades of Gray is the Egg McMuffin.
>> Brian: Let's talk about that story real quick.
>> Devin: Ok.
>> Brian: I will always remember this because this is the night before I broke up with my ex-girlfriend. Because when you carry around a briefcase of Popeye's chicken, that's when you know. You're like, "What have I done. You must change your life." (laughter)
>> Devin: It wasn't like you did your duty to get Popeye's for a party. Like you went out of your way to get this. You carried it like 20 blocks.
>> Brian: Yeah. Did I carry it? ... we were drunk...?
>> Devin: You or George.
>> Jared: We took the metro from Katie's place up to 125th. And by the time that we were coming back, I don't believe the metro was running anymore or it was on a half hour basis. So we had to wait in the metro...and not only was it a briefcase, it was a briefcase that was in the shape of a barn like it had a pitched roof on it. (laughter)
>> Brian: That's right, that's right. And the handle was like...
>> Devin: I don't know if anyone remembers but we all fought that night.
>> Brian: Not in a, not in an antagonistic way. A physically, like sibling sort of, you know....we just wrestled
>> Devin: 3 or 4 floors above the city, we reenacted the way that brothers and sisters...yeah... that go from play fighting to slightly more forceful fighting where there's a lot of deep seated rage that's laying under the surface of our relationship. (laughter)
>> George: Yeah, grievances were aired.
>> Brian: Yeah it was a beautiful moment. So… so what did you say was the egg McMuffin?
>> Devin: I now think that George, I honestly think that we are the best ones to talk about this since we eat this stuff the most.
>> Brian: Yeah but I will say that McDonald's breakfast is the only fast food that I will eat. (agreement from George)
>> Devin: I think your question about it's goodness.. I think the Egg McMuffin is the 50 Shades of Gray because it is a bland sandwich. It is a muffined... it is a tender BDSM.
>> George: Yeah, it's also an appropriation of a proper sandwich too. From what I understand, 50 Shades of Gray began as Twilight fan-fic and that it was modified...
>> Brian: That's a hard left
>> Devin: That deepens the actual, this is a surface level conversation... (laughter and interruption)
>> Brian: That's honestly... I'm going to say right now, I'm planning to put out a new blog post with a month of reviews of Hallmark films. And I will say that the mark of the Hall... the Hallmark of a Hallmark film is that it appears to be leading to a porno or a horror film but it never quite gets there (laughter). But like who wrote 50 Shades of Gray?
>> Devin: Oh.... who knows?
>> George: EL James.... someone not worthy of the abbreviation "EL" (laughter)
>> Devin: EL James? I was going to say Darius Ruckers.
>> Brian: They started writing this fan fiction and they said this is approaching this thing but I'm not going to approach it. I'm going to just start...
>> Devin: Has anyone seen EL James?
>> Brian: No
>> Devin: Is he or she real?
>> George: It's a she and it is a pseudonym
>> Brian: That's upsetting. I was going to egg the fuck out of their house. (laughter)
>> George: Their mansion. Their mansion. Wherever they live in the biggest damn house wherever they are. Their house is huge. It's a castle. It's a castle that subdued BDSM built.
>> Devin: Yeah. I know we will get back to the literary industry but Brian's point about Hallmark... Brian and I, and Katie as well, would binge watch Nic Cage films. I think that there's an unmitigated joy in doing that. And some of them are quite...
>> Brian: Good
>> Devin: Some are good and some are weird.
>> Brian: Joe...Joe was good.
>> Devin: Joe was good. And some are weird that you appreciate them. And I think that's an admirable quality for something that's weird and out of place or strange. And I think, again it calls to...maybe this adds nuance to the conversation because some of those films are low budget. But there is a pleasure in watching things like that: in Hallmark movies, or Nic Cage films, or reading 50 Shades of Gray. That I think shouldn't be lost on us or at least should be taken into consideration when we feel slighted by the industry.
>> Jared: No, see, I don't think that the pleasure that you described in watching bad films, that are so bad that they are pleasurable. That's something that I don't think carries over into literature.
>> Devin: Interesting
>> Brian: Yeah, I'm trying to think of an example.
>> Jared: I'll watch “Predator” or “Snakes on a Plane”, or something like that, and lay back and just be coddled you know. And enjoy myself shamelessly. But I would never do that with a book. I would never dedicate, you know, a week or two weeks of my life for a book that's absolute garbage because it delivers this kind of shameful pleasure.
>> Devin: Yeah. Wouldn't that be interesting though. Think of all the good actors that are in bad films. Most good actors... even Daniel Day Lewis did "Nine" which sucked.
>> Jared: I think it's because he wanted to do a musical...
>> Devin: Yeah. It would be funny to me if...I don't know... name your favorite literary fiction author and like every three books, like if Don Delilo threw one...like he has some books that aren't that great, but purposely...
>> Brian: But are we talking about like a pot boiler, or are we talking about like literal trash.
>> Devin: I don't know...I just...
>> Jared: Faulkner wrote books under a pseudonym. And they wrote for Hollywood as well; writers like Fitzgerald, Hemingway, Faulkner, (muddled) - they all wrote screenplays for Hollywood films and none of them took it seriously. It was just a paycheck.
>> Brian: They had the decency to hide themselves.
>> Jared: Right, exactly, so this reinforces the distinction that I am trying to make, which is that you can't really do that with any kind of integrity with literature. Literature is not the medium that lends itself to that kind of shameful play where you can read like a trashy book and enjoy it on some kind of, you know, debased level. You can do that with cinema. You can watch Sharknado and derive a sort of shameful pleasure from it. But I think it's understood, maybe just because of the history of literature, because of where literature has come from. It comes from a different place than cinema. Cinema, when it first became an artform, was regarded as a vulgar form - it was regarded as a mass form. It wasn't taken seriously. It took time to sort of earn its credentials as a serious art. Whereas we always took literature as a serious artform so we don't look for that kind of shameful pleasure.
>> Devin: That's a good point
>> George: There are plenty of people, plenty of people go and after working in a library for just shy of a decade, plenty of people come in wanting the trash, you know. A lot of, a lot of even very avid readers love to come in...we checked out more harlequin romance novels about immortal highlanders or uh dudes that rode motorcycles but who were also werewolves than we checked out in poetry. And like that kind of shit flew off the shelves, you know. That's the equivalent of the Hallmark movies or the Nic Cage movies. Just these sort of action rompers. I'm thinking Lee Child, he just had the... what's the name of his titular marine character? I mean, once that movie came out those things... you couldn't keep those things on the shelves.
>> Devin: Isn't he Jack Reacher?
>> George: Jack Reacher, that's who I'm thinking about...
>> Devin: Isn't Lee Child “Jack Reacher”?
>> George: I think so. Yeah.
>> Devin: I saw... he had a giveaway.... he had a book giveaway at a minor league baseball game (laughter)
>> Brian: Yeah. That's right, yeah. I'm really upset that you didn't...I'm really upset you didn't bring copies home for us. But there's an intersection there that almost is kind of like a caveat with what Jared is saying. Like basically that those books are trash.
>> Devin: But aren't they most of the market?
>> Brian: Yeah
>> Devin: Literary fiction, I believe, like when I last looked at a pie chart a long time ago, literary fiction is just a small slice of the market.
>> Brian: Oh yeah. It has to be. I bet it always has been...
>> Devin: I think...(interference)....as you just did George because I think you, more so than any of us, have been engaged with, like, the public outside of writers as a librarian.
>> George: Oh yeah
>> Devin: And have a better sense I think of, just anecdotally, what people want.
>> George: You know, it's great working in a library because you can sort of witness, on a street-level, the average reader's relationship with the publishing industry and what it is they're checking out and what is that they want. 1 out of 10 people, if they ask for a recommendation from an adult services librarian, probably wanted something literary. That's... I would say about 1 out of every 10 people wanted the book that they saw that that was nominated for a Man Booker....
>> Brian: I'm sorry, George hold on. An adult services librarian sounds very conspicuous.
>> George: It does, doesn't it?
>> Brian: That sounds very softcore subdued BDSM. Graphic...
>> George: Yeah we are subdued after-hours librarians. (laughter) I mean, hell, I mostly peddled smut so I might as well have been some kind of illicit... (laughter). But I mean the harlequin stuff... that was most of what we had. You know, most of what flew off the shelves was the immortal highlanders for Christmas. Those were like the Christmas sex novels with the immortal Scotsmen... that was big. And just any variation of that theme. Hot guy, you know, the throbbing member literature (laughter)
>> Brian: That's, yeah. That's it. That's the title of this uh.. this episode. The Throbbing Member (agreement and laughter). But no, I want to finish this though. I want to finish... we have the Egg McMuffin...
>> Devin: Wow, we are still on this?
>> Brian: Yeah, no, yeah. We are...
>> Devin: Because I want to bring this back to literary fiction. Like let's be quick
>> Brian: Ok, ok. Yeah, there's no, let's come back to this at the end. You go on. Literary fiction. And I want to talk more about our experiences too just because I think our experiences... I don't think it's a coincidence that all of us have met with resistance. Oh wow, our producers are asking us to check in with everyone's bladder situations.
>> Devin: It should be like between a 1 and 10. 10 is like Niagra Falls. Holding back Niagara Falls..
>> Brian: I'm at...I'm at a 2. I'm not going to lie
>> Jared: I'm perfectly fine but I'm running low on whiskey...
>> Devin: Well assign a fucking number Jared.
>> Brian: Mmmhmmm
>> Jared: I'm at like a 1.5
>> Brian: Wow we need to start drinking more.
>> Devin: I'm at like a 3.5
>> Brian: I'm on my 2nd beer I think?
>> Devin: I'm on my 3rd....
>> Brian: Your 3rd? Ok, I gotta catch.
>> Devin: George, how are you?
>> George: I think I'm right about there with you Dev, 3 and a half. Which is unusual because at any given point in the day I'm at least a 6? Like I can pee... like I can pee at any second. But I am a compulsive hydrater.
>> Devin: Yeah. Nah, I wanted to bring it back to light.... because I think it is justifiable to feel a bit, especially as a literary fiction, or a literary writer, a more focused literary writer in general, to feel slighted by the publishing industry. And I saw this...I generally am not one to, as everyone knows, to start a condescending conversation...
>> Brian: Wars...(laughter)
>> Devin: But I did see someone reputable posting this on Twitter so I feel ok asking this. What was the most, maybe, hyped up book in the past few years that was supposed to be really really good but wasn't?
>> Brian: Hmm. Yeah I mean, that is easy. I don't know if... Katie's nodding her head... are you thinking “City on Fire”? Yeah, ok. I thought it was good, I actually thought... I thought it was good.
>> Devin: But maybe also juxtapose it with one that is also... this is me being a "good person"... juxtapose it with one that was quite good. Like juxtapose it with a hyped up book that actually met the standards that you ascribe to good literary fiction or nonfiction.
>> Brian: I see, oh. Oh, that's tough. I don't know, do you guys have an idea?
>> George: JK Rowling came out with a more adult focused book, what was it called? Uh, “Sense of An Ending”?
>> Brian: Oh God. The Popeye's chicken of writers (laughter)
>> George: “Sense of an Ending” came out and people were backflipping into the library to grab a copy and almost as quickly as they went out they poured back into the library. It was like a wave at high and low tide. Like they came in and then they dropped the book on the way out. Like they didn't even check it out, they got through the first 3 pages, they let it fall to the floor, and continued mid stride with wherever they were going. That was a huge, I think, critical and commercial failure. And they made it into a movie of course.
>> Jared: Well didn't she release the book under a pseudonym and then they had to confirm it was JK Rowling who had written to make sales? (George confirms) It tells you that the author is not dead and is a comparable currency.
>> Brian: And that's when Curkis comes back and says the book is actually good (chuckles)
>> Devin: But I'm also more interested in books that were more like, billed as literary fiction or literary nonfiction. I think, I think... Jared you brought up a good example with Empathy Exams which I really loved. One of my favorite books of essays. I read her book "The Recovering" which came out from Little Brown which was much hyped. I thought the writing was wonderful and the story as well but I found it to be 200 pages too long and it felt like a slog to get through. To me the best book that came out that met the hype in the last 5 to 10 years, in terms of literary fiction was uh, "What Belongs to You" by Garth Greenwell.
>> Brian: Oh yeah, I quoted that book in an essay...
>> Devin: I loved that book. Ummm...
>> Jared: Which I have not read. What about "Zero K"? What about Delilo's latest novel?
>> Brian: Oh. Jared, see I love that you brought that up because I put that book down like you put down "Purity". I, I, I said, fuck this, your....I.... fuck this. Let's talk about this. I love this.
>> Devin: But that book also didn't get that much hype to begin with
>> Brian: But he's Don. He's Don.
>> Devin: He's Don
>> Jared: It didn't? Well no, that was Delilo's first book in like 7 years
>> Devin: Well maybe people realized it wasn't that great. And I feel like the hype wasn't that long lasting... if there was any hype...
>> Brian: Did you like it Jared?
>> Jared: I'll admit, I didn't read. I just brought it up because I thought it would be good for the conversation.
>> Brian: Oh, yeah yeah. I'll admit, I mean, you know my feelings on Delillo. I think he peaked with "White Noise".
>> Jared: Ha ha, he picked 30 years ago?
>> Brian: I mean, yeah, I.... I just think like, he's an American treasure in the industry, you know what I mean? So his name is going to be consecrated on whatever he puts out so it doesn't matter. So you know, I can't blame him for that (yeah), I can't. Like he's Don Delilo, you know? But I think that it's going to be interesting to see the transition between these people that are like deified, and the transition to like, more literary fiction is coming out with smaller presses. These bigger presses don't want to pick this stuff up. They don't want to take chances on it.
>> Devin: There's like a pantheon of great American writers like Delilo, Tony Morrison, Kormick... who are still alive
>> Brian: Tony Morrison, the first.. I think the first black person to win a Nobel prize? I'm pretty sure. Or a pulitzer? You want to...
>> Devin: Want to fact check that?
>> Brian: Yeah fact check that for us please...
>> Devin: She has a book coming out, I think of essays (yeah). But there's like a pantheon of great American fiction writers who are sort of in that, like, consecrated state where people will buy whatever they put out. I don't think... and maybe this is something we can talk about as well to add to the continued list... I think one thing about our industry that is different now is that it doesn't allow for that. There's very few... like you have Roxanne Gay... you have a few...
>> Brian: Noone's a superstar. Like Noone's a god.
>> Devin: Yeah, you have a few people who are in their mid career right now who you can see putting out books for the rest of their lives. But I am hard pressed to name... like it just seems like people put out books and wither away. Umm... flame out.
>> Brian: I'm going to take a leap right now. This might qualify as a tangent. I was watching some guy... some physicist on Joe Rogan's podcast talking about how close we are to figuring out physical reality. And I wonder if there is any... oh ok we got a fact check coming in. First black woman to win a Nobel Prize.
>> Devin: Tony Morrisson.
>> Brian: Which I love Jon Thompson's quote, by the way. Jon Thompson, coach of the uh, Georgetown Hoyas. The great Patrick Ewing. Allen Iverson? Allen Iverson, was he there? (Devin agrees) Yeah but that was later. But anyway, you know, Jon Thompson was the first black coach to win the national championship I'm pretty sure. And he said it doesn't mean he was the first black coach to be able to do so, he was the first one given the opportunity. Anyway, we shall continue...
>> Devin: He was a great coach. His son, not so much.
>> Brian: What I want to talk about, real quick, is do we think that language is on the verge of becoming irrelevant as a truth giving sequence because of science. But at the same time...Because physics... Here's the caveat. Physics is not being disseminated to the masses as it should be. We don't know what's going on in the latest realm of physics. Like String Theory and Einstein shit is almost old hat by now. It's a very flawed theory and there's a lot of stuff that we know now that no one else knows.
>> Devin: I see George looking furtively around...
>> Brian: Look at, look at. Yeah Jared's like, fuck you.
>> Devin: Jared's ready to answer and maybe George...
>> Jared: No, I just uh is this really where we want to go with this conversation?
>> Brian: Absolutely, I...
>> Devin: Well, I was thinking more along the lines of, do we think that language in prose in the literary landscape, publishing landscape, do we think that language is valued as a way to be excited or to move through a book of fiction or nonfiction.
>> Jared: Brian, to your point... and this goes more to the relevance that um certain kinds of writing and certain kinds of knowledge have in culture which is.. certainly there's certainly a market for the hard sciences in the publishing industry. You have authors like Richard Dawkins, Brian Green, and Steven Pinkard, and Lawrence Krauss, who all write these popular books about physics and the culture devours them. So there is certainly a market for that and these people that write these books have some sort of status in the culture. They go around the country... they go around the world and they speak in auditoriums and sell out these theatres and they're, you know, public intellectuals. That's something we can't say about the literary world. (sure) There was a time when we had people like Norman Maylor and (?) people who went on late night TV and talked to Johnny Carson and Norv Griffin and they had some sort of standing in the culture. People cared what writers thought. People no longer really care what writers think. I can't remember the last time like that... on a late night talk show... it's much more likely to be a scientist now rather than a fiction writer and that shows you how truly little people are interested in what fiction writers think now.
>> Devin: Yeah. I mean, I will say that I think that your point is apt when it applies to fiction. I know that like, regardless of what you think of her writing, Roxanne Gay is a contributing writer for the Times. I actually... my favorite things that Roxanne Gay writes are her New York Times op-eds. Some of her books I don't particularly enjoy as much as other books. That's as mean of a thing that I will say (Brian chuckles). But I do.... I always... I know that when she... I think she’s a really apt commentator and a breath of fresh air on the New York Times opinion page. But I agree with your point that a lot of that she is... she got her literary merit with "That Feminist" which was a book of essays even though she had written, I think, a novel and a book of stories or at least a novel before that. And I think that society does not value fiction writers to the extent that it values any other writer.
>> Jared: We haven't heard from George from awhile (agreement)
>> Brian: So George, you go first after I ask this. I'm curious...
>> Devin: It's called cold-calling in the teaching industry
>> Brian: What's that?
>> Devin: Cold-calling
>> Brian: Cold-calling?
>> Devin: It's a good way to increase class participation (laughter)
>> Brian: Cold-calling. I'm not really good with sales so we will see how this goes. I'm really interested in whether we think the industry is worse off than before when it was more central to the culture as we were saying. Or is it just less popular when compared to other medium such as film and TV
>> George: Well, I mean. I think you say the same thing with literature that you see from, uh, the music or from the movie industry. There is a... the more easy it is to become... to disseminate this content to the world for it to be purchased and consumed and to be more purchased and more consumed. I think you see this sort of uh, tremendous inflation with how much content is being produced, right? I mean, when you say is the industry better now than it was? I think it's bigger. I think it's much bigger. I think it's the biggest it's ever been. I think that's the same for streaming video services and the content that they produce. Netflix comes to mind, Amazon.
And it's the same for uh, music. I think now there is more music available, right now, that's been produced in the past 20 years than was ever available in the whole history of our species before that. (agreement) I would more assert that that is almost certainly true, right? (agreement) Is the industry better now? I think... I mean... and of course you guys have more familiarity with the industry given that you live in New York and you interact with agents and publishers more often than I do. But, to me, the thing that most imperiled the literary market is the sort of centrality of so many of its biggest players.
And to remention Amazon again... the publishers are so big and so few and that seems to me more than anything to be what is throttling the creative bursts that we see in the literary market. You know, if I have a band then I can put my band on Spotify, you know, straight from me to them. (agreement) And I mean as an author you have the recourse to self-publish but the taboo in the industry is still so heavy and so present and even so if you aren't going to get it put on paper... like you want a paper book... that's the dream right? Don't we all have that dream of getting the box with the novel in it, cracking it open, pulling one out, smelling it, smelling the paper, you know? You can turn it into digital content, no problem, and try and sell it. But unless...
>> Brian: Devin's holding up his published book. And just real quick, we need to check in on everyone. Devin has held up a sign saying that he has to pee.
>> Devin: I do have to pee. I have gone from a 3.
>> Brian: To a?
>> Devin: I have gone from a 3 to probably a 7. (wows) I'm on my 4th beer.
>> Brian: That's pretty high. I don't know if you're crying wolf man. That's pretty serious
>> Devin: Maybe a 6. There is a tingling in my bladder
>> Brian: I'm at a 4 or a 5. How anatomical can we get?
>> Jared: I'm a.. I'm a... 5
>> George: I'm sitting at a 5
>> Devin: So everyone could pee if given the chance now.
>> Jared: Yeah, I could (Devin chuckles)
>> Devin: You know George, I was thinking about your point. To me, the best way that I can describe the literary industry right now... the literary fiction publishing industry monolith.... one of my big gripes with it is the conversation of the world outside of literature - whether that be economics, politics, social relations - I feel the conversation is guiding the publishing and the writing more than the writing is given credit to guide the conversation
>> George: Definitely
>> Brian: You can see... you can see past leaders... past leaders were very eloquent, very literate. Now we have Donald Trump who can't string together 5 words without making a grammatical error.
>> Devin: And the problem with that is... the problem with that for me is moreso is actually with books like, one of the nonfiction bestsellers of the past year or two, was this book called "Hillbilly Elegy" which is just a shitty book. It's a nonfiction book about this Appalachian-raised born guy, JD Vance, who goes to Yale. And it's essentially just talking down to everyone... everyone from the community that he was born. It's essentially like a "you could pull yourself up by your boot-straps if you really tried" book. And the problem with that is not as much that he wrote the book, you know that the reason that that book was published was because we are in the midst of a potential Trump election and people wanted stories about Appalachia and this is what they got. They got the cookie cutter "pull yourself up from your boot straps", everything ties in with the American dream... like idealization of it rather than the hard truth of it. And that's what happens, I think, when conversation guides publishing more so than people believe in voices in writers to guide the conversation.
>> Brian: Yeah, mhmmm. Yeah, I agree. That's why when you were talking about how it's tough to publish something that's not topical when we were talking about when you needed two books for the price of one. That's always struck me as insane. I mean I know it works. I know books sell if they are topical but at the same time a unique idea rarely comes from something that's in vogue or at worse, a trend. I don't know, there is a link back to critical thinking and our education system that I think might link to publishing. I'm not sure about that one as political and popular culture. I do know, I was just going to say my personal experience real quick is that... I know it's a crap shoot because I have gotten an agent before with a far worse iteration of my novel than it is now. And then it was tough... it was even tougher than that. In my personal opinion, the industry knows what it's doing because they know how to make money. But they would be better off just cutting off literary fiction out of their names because they don't know what to do with it. And indie presses should just take care of it from now.
>> Devin: Yeah, I think everyone would be better off.
>> Jared: Yeah. Well I... I think the fact that indie presses are sort of, uh, taking it upon themselves to publish serious literary work has relieved larger presses of that responsibility.
>> Brian: Yeah. Yeah, they can publish their textbooks, you know?
>> Jared: Yeah, and I mean we all know the way this goes. This has been the case for mainstream publishing for a long time now. Where similar to big movie studios, they invest most of their money in a few big releases a year - the equivalent to what the Avengers might be for a movie studio (agreements). You have big summer releases and then you have the few, sort of respectable Fall release titles from writers like Jonathan Franzen and Tony Morrisson... the sort of Oscar season for books. And publishers keep those writers to maintain credibility, and to get accolades, and to get literary awards attached to their press. And that's pretty much it. It's a very small pile of money that's reserved for those kinds of writers. It's maybe like 1% of their budget. And it's to keep face in the literary world to maintain some kind of respectability. The number of new writers, debut writers, that big presses invest in every year is practically nil.
>> Devin: Yeah, and they will promptly jettison an author if their book doesn't sell.
>> Jared: Exactly.
>> Devin: One of my favorite writers, who we had read at Animal Riot, is uh Noy Holland, who is a great example of someone who is almost entirely concerned with language. And I believe her first book was a book of stories called "The Spectacle of the Body" which was published by FSG and never made paperback - I think the hardcover never sold enough. And after that I believe all of her books were published by a smaller imprint and she went on to edit for a small fiction collective, a smaller imprint, and like understood that the literary world, the mainstream publishing world is not for me so I am going to make the space for authors who write like me.
>> Brian: Right. It's like the music industry. They all just took control of it.
>> Jared: Yeah, well I think as important as the mainstream literary industry has been for decades, when it comes to serious fiction it is sometimes overstated in terms of posterity of works... the posterity that it can confer on works of art. For example, many of the great modernist texts that are now staples of any literature program or writing program were books that were published by essentially small presses at their time. For example, "Ulysses" was published by Bookstore Shakespeare and Co in Paris and the first printing of "Ulysses" was 500 copies and it was sent mostly to critics and friends (inaudible). Kaufka, when his first collection of stories was published here in Prague, I believe it was only published in the Czech Republic, and Kaufka bought like 99 of those copies because he was terrified that no one else would buy them so he bought them first before anyone else could
>> Brian: That's a pretty good idea
>> Devin: Yeah. What about your book George?
>> Brian: Yeah, George... George. What... you're working on a new book now but what about the one you kind of shelved cause you did pass that around to the suits a little bit, didn't you?
>> George: Uh well the first book got sent to the suits but this last one is in the cooler at the moment and I'm busying myself with a small one in the meantime. Just something to keep me busy (snickers in the background). But you know, I'm terrified of writing my query letter because I don't know how to tell these people that are interested in my writing as a product what the hell I'm doing. It terrifies me. Like the last book, I have been working on some drafts as a query in my head and I'm fairly sure I'm going to tell them... I mean I probably won't but I want to tell them that it is the action-adventure in the cyclical of a dying future religion with hints of, you know, neo-western and Arab futurism. But who the hell is going to buy that? Like, they don't want that book, you know? It's wild cause I'm...
>> Brian: Yeah, but I, yeah I mean I feel like... in a query letter it's like you have to almost guarantee a reader is going to have an orgasm when they read the book, you know. It's like you can't really say what the book is about. You have to say like this is where all your hopes and dreams lay.
>> Jared: And you have to cite existing works of fiction that are comparable to yours, you know. Like, you know, we all know this from writing query letters...
>> Brian: And there's no right answer. There's none...
>> Jared: Right. And you know, if you have a novel and and the novel fits roughly a description of another novel that's been published in the last couple years, you want to put in the query letter to your agent "this book is a lot like this book and it will probably appeal to the same market".
>> Devin: Sure. Yeah
>> Jared: You can only pitch your work on the basis that it's like something else that has previously been successful. There's no confidence...
>> Devin: Yeah. And that's actually the same too as someone who has worked on a book proposal for non-fiction. There is an entire section of your proposal that is like a page long description of other books that have sold and how they've sold that are related to your book and why your book is different but will sell like theirs. And you have to write that yourself. It's crazy
>> Brian: Which is understandable. But at the same time, going back to... yeah go ahead George.
>> Devin: Enthusiastic George.
>> George: I feel like that is such a shitty burden to put on your author
>> Devin: It is.
>> George: I'm the last person you should be asking about the market viability of the shit that I'm writing. Right? Like how do I know?
>> Devin: It is. Don't ever write a book proposal. Yeah. Just put me in a room.
>> George: Read the book. Read the book and if it's good, how about this? You publish it. I don't know why (laughter).... you can do a small run. If the book is good then fucking print. What's the hold up? Why do I have to come to you with market research. Just make fucking 200 of them, you know? Put them in one store, you know?
>> Jared: I feel like that should be the Animal Riot logo. If it's good then print it.
>> Brian: That's not bad. "Books that matter" is our current one, but "if it's good then print it". That, I kind of like that. We should get focus groups and put them in a room and just hold up books just with their cover. And they can nod or shake their heads.
>> George: Yeah. Just throw the book at their heads, you know. See... how did it feel when that book hit you? Was that (unclear)?
>> Jared: That's practically what you have to do. Literature stands apart from the other popular artforms in the sense that a book is not apprehendable at a glance. You can walk into an art gallery and you can look at a painting and it takes a second and you can say whether you like it or you don't. Or you can go to a photo blog and you can quickly survey someone's work and you can judge it very quickly.
>> Devin: Yeah.
>> Jared: You can do the same with graffiti. It takes on average 2 hours to watch a film. It takes 3 minutes, on average, to listen to a song. Literature is the only medium that requires more time and more energy than virtually every other artform. So it's at a disadvantage just by virtue of speed alone, it's at a disadvantage.
>> Devin: I have two quick things to say. The first is that I want to jump on your point, George, about your book. It made me think of a good Animal Riot friend of ours, Leela Chuck, who runs another small press called 3AM... not 3AM, 7-1-3, sorry. 3AM is a magazine. 713 Books. And I remember I interviewed him for the Millions and talked about this very thing and he told me a story about how... and his philosophy is very similar to the Animal Riot philosophy about publishing books that might get play in the industry because they are not relevant...
>> Brian: Or because it takes a modicum of activation energy to get into it, you know?
>> Devin: Yeah. But what struck me once is that he turned down his favorite book he read on submission because he wanted it to get published by someone bigger and he thought he would.
>> Brian: Oh I remember that story. This was about a Kansas dystopian...
>> Devin: It was like a Kansas dystopian Islamic state book written by a Middle Eastern author and he said it was so good that he can't publish it. Like he was like "This is so good that you're going to get an agent and you're going to get published."
>> Brian: Right. Right. It's an honorable thing to do. Fuck that, I wouldn't do it haha.
>> Devin: And honestly I want to follow up with him because I don't know if he did. It would be a sad state... it would be...
>> Brian: (Yeahs and nos) Let me give a good example about this. The next book that we are going to publish with Animal Riot is from our former thesis advisor, David Hollander's novel... and he hasn't published anything since the turn of the millenium. And that's because he gives books to agents and editors that can't get past the fear of difficulty. Our producers are reminding me that he has published plenty since then but he hasn't published a novel since then. Since L.I.E which is a fantastic book. And I just read a draft of the novel that we are going to put out but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the reaction that these editors gave him has to be the same as the reaction that all the editors gave Sergio De La Pava when "Naked Singularity" came out. That behemoth of a basically modern day "Ulysses". I mean, it's impossible to get past that resistance and I think it's very telling that an email back to me when I gave him back my notes, he said that he gave me word-for-word a quote from the longest response from any editor and it was just two paragraphs. That was it. That's the most effort that they are willing to put into this kind of stuff. There are people out there looking for this stuff. It's just that no one wants to believe that... they don't want to deal with that because they have a lot of other money makers and this is bringing it back to what I was saying early that it has to be outsourced. You know, Jay-Z revolutionized music with Rockafella, with the Rock. That was it. Then Kanye followed suit, and everyone. It's the same thing with literature, it's just going to take a long time because... just like Jared said, it takes a long time to read a book. That's it.
>> Devin: None of it makes sense too. Because people still love "A Little Life" which was 900 pages, right?
>> Brian: "City on Fire" was 900 pages. So it's a lot of why it caught flak. Which is why I just want to say...
>> Devin: "A Little Life" sold better (garbled)
>> Brian: I actually don't know this book
>> Devin: You've never heard of "A Little Life"?
>> Brian: No. I have not.
>> Devin: With the crying face on the cover? It's like 900 pages, it was on the bestseller list, everyone loves it, people still read it..
>> Brian: There it is. When did it come out?
>> Devin: It's got a 4.3 out of 5 on Goodreads.
>> Brian: There you go. Well I think because 3.9 is by far the median. Or like 3.5. I'm getting word in my ear, breaking news, came out in 2015.
>> Devin: You got planes landing in the distance...
>> Brian: Planes landing, yeah, yeah. The FAA is all over this. We're good.
>> Jared: The publishing industry is no different than any other industry in the sense that it doesn't assume that it's audience is that smart. The industry (garbled) to its consumers all the time by assuming that they can't handle the...
>> Devin: The truth (Brian laughs)
>> Jared: ... a certain level of work. That they can't handle the truth (laughs).
>> Brian: It's run by a "few good men", that's the problem. That's the goddamn problem (laughter.
>> Devin: Yeah, it is. There are a few bad men.
>> Jared: Empirically, if you market a book correctly even if you market a big book like "Infinite Jest" as a challenge to the reader. As a kind of dare. It's a book that will get people's attention and unfortunately "Infinite Jest" has become this kind of book now that most people don't actually read it but they have it on their bookshelves as a kind of "badge of honor". They want to be seen reading it but they haven't actually read it. But strategically, you know, if you're in a marketing department of a big publishing company, you can do that. You can pitch a big difficult big with some success.
>> Brian: Oh, yeah. Definitely. And you know what, I think the reason that "City on Fire" failed commercially, relatively I think, but I know it didn't do as well as "The Advance" and all that what most had hoped for. Basically when I heard Garth read for the first time, and I heard him speak and I was in his class, he taught at Sarah Lawrence. I was like, wow this guy is a fucking genius. This guy wants to be the next Don Delilo, and I think he can do it. Like I think he is there. But then I read his book and I'm like "you're hedging right now". The prose is very watered down, the story is good, the language is pretty at times.
>> Devin: We also don't know how much was altered by editors
>> Brian: We don't know that. We have no idea. But at the same time, this is a novel that he puts out... and even our director of our MFA program Brian Morten said he was surprised by how generous he was. And to me I took that to how it was sublimated to my body... that's a euphemism for "you didn't nut up and do what you could do", you know?
>> Devin: What's interesting to me... I have been getting more into, as everyone knows, getting more into journalism. I have had many, not many... I published a few journalistic pieces in the past year.
>> Brian: He just reported on Christmas trees.
>> Devin: Yeah, it's coming out. I think a lot of this also makes me think, as someone who has gotten into journalism, I have had a few pieces published... and I think this is tied into the belief that I think a lot of us have touched on... I think Jared, you said it, that the industry kind of condescends to the individual. I wrote a piece for The Outline about this guy who is tracking humpback whales in New York City. It's mostly about this guy. It's sort of a profile of this guy and of the whales and I had a title for, I forget what it was, but then they sent me a link when it was published and the title was just like "Whale Watching in New York City". And this happens all the time with people who are publishing journalistic pieces, is that they throw in a title that they think matters. And it's just a title, we aren't even talking about the bulk of the prose
>> Brian: Who's going to click on that?
>> Devin: Yeah and the clickbait culture that we live in, the retweet culture where we are just retweeting things that we see on the timeline as opposed to clicking on the link and reading everything?
>> Brian: Right.
>> Devin: The amount of times that I have had a title change is fascinating to me and the titles that they are changed to are far more generic. And I get it. I get it. You get money off of clicks. It's a data driven thing. You want more people to click on your links (chuckles) which sound weird.
>> Brian: That's almost like a hedge for people that are getting off on whale watching. Like voyeurism...
>> Devin: Tender whale BDSM. (laughter)
>> Brian: Like bestiality voyeurism.
>> Devin: Humpback whales... humpback whales are beautiful.
>> Brian: God I have to take a piss.. so badly
>> Devin: Yeah. The piss is... I think that...
>> Brian: By the way, I'm at a solid 6. Possibly 7
>> Devin: I'm definitely a 7.5 or an 8.
>> Jared: Ok we are reaching a breaking point. This is the soupiest...
>> Devin: I mean I can make it another... we are also past an hour so we understand everything we say is going to get cut. My point is that so much of this conversation - and I think we could talk about this for a long time - it's both about the nature of the industry, it's about the nature of other industries. I think like journalism, I think it's about the nature of things like Twitter and social media. And are we experiencing a dumbing down of culture? Are experiencing a dumbing down of culture?
>> Brian: I would say we are experiencing a li... I don't think we are experiencing a dumbing down of culture because... I am thinking about the separation of information before the digital age. But I do think we are finding ourselves quickly, rapidly approaching the lowest common denominator. You know what I mean? There's a medium of what's acceptable intellectually. I think that's what's really scary rather than a dumbing down of culture in general, you know?
>> Jared: I think that you can succeed in systematically lowering people's standards over decades by feeding them trash and sending them the message that they are good enough or smart enough for anything better. And then people come to believe that they get exactly what they deserve. They don't expect anymore. I think that's something that's something that's empirically true. Look at "Lolita", for example, was a bestseller when it was published in the 50's. As well as (?), as well as Lionel Trilling's "The Liberal Imagination" which is a book of criticism about liberalism and its relation to literature. It's almost impossible to imagine any of those 3 books being bestsellers in today's literary climate.
>> Brian: Yeah. Not a chance. Not a chance. I don't know even know where to start for why that is
>> Devin: I think that's another day
>> Brian: That's another day. I mean it ties into the literary industry. It's the reason for why I think big houses and stuff should relieve themselves of the duties of literary fiction and all of that stuff.
>> Devin: I will say this George, or maybe you can chime in, is that I do think that in all of this hellscape, poetry, for better or worse, is experiencing an uptick in popularity maybe?
>> George: I think poetry is healthy. Poetry is doing alright. You know...
>> Devin: I think poetry is doing alright
>> George: You hear about it all the time like in trying times people turn to poetry. Right after a tragedy people turn to poetry. Some of the most famous things that world leaders said after tragedies have been taken from poetry... and I think specifically of Reagan with the Sarah Lee "Bombs of Earth". I think there is a more uptick in general rabble rousing and an appreciation of poetry.
>> Devin: I would say my unpopular opinion is part of me doesn't... and this is the kind of thing, you know, when you discover a song and you only want your close friends to hear it or you want people to know that you heard it first... part of my does not want poetry to continue to uptick in popularity because I don't want it to give into capitalist interests
>> George: I don't think there's any way for poetry to...
>> Brian: I was going to say the same thing
>> George: I don't think poetry is at risk. (laughs)
>> Brian: Poetry is sooo inaccessible because it doesn't come out and say the thing that it wants to say. It says it in riddles (laughter)
>> Devin: Riddles... all poetry is riddles
>> Jared: No again. Just by virtue of speed, it's an extinct form in some ways. I'm sorry to have to say it, this is coming from someone who loves poetry.
>> Devin: That's an absurd point. I just need to be on record saying that that is an absurd point. Carry on...
>> Jared: It doesn't have... you can think of poetry in the same way that you can think about blank verse and Elizabethan drama. I mean people don't write in blank verse anymore because it has no relevance to our culture. But that's not to say that poetry doesn't have any relevance to our culture. But I think as a form, it's not the primary delivery system now. The point of poetry is that it slows things down and it's a contemplation of the moment. And it's ultimately a solitary phenomenon which is becoming rarer and rarer these days. And if... 200 years ago Byron was a celebrity and was mobbed in the streets of London and Venice. And now a book of poetry is considered a hit if it sells more than 200 copies.
>> Brian: That's because back then he was spitting hot fire, you know. And hip hop has completely usurped poetry as the form of verse, you know. And it's concomitant with just black culture in the 90's became the coolest thing in the world. American black culture was the epitome of culture and it kind of dominated poetic scene over music, I guess you would say
>> George: And I'm completely ok with this
>> Devin: I love when George talks. (laughter) Carry on
>> Brian: It's my favorite. I have to piss so bad guys
>> George: You know, poetry is at no risk of being over-commodified. Nobody goes into poetry because they want to write something that sells a million copies.
>> Devin: And if you do then there's something wrong with you. I'll go on record on that
>> George: Yeah of course. And you're bound to fail. What is pop poetry? That's what makes poetry worthwhile, is because it is still predominantly a subversive act. I feel poetry is inherently subversive. It's done to be... it's done because it gives us joy. It's untainted by thinking about...so you have a poem that you want to submit to a journal. They aren't going to ask you whether you have 10 more poems that we can also publish? Or who is the audience for this? Or give us a list of other poems that are like this that have already been published. If the poem is good then they fucking publish it. And that's all I'm asking.
>> Devin: Yeah imagine writing a poem proposal prior to writing a poem (laughter), the 3 poems that this is like...
>> George: Precisely, in this poem I will titulate the reader
>> Brian: It turns into an SEO project. You pick out some words that are going to be keywords that people are going to latch onto. It's bullshit. It's insane. But uh, ok, hi my name is Brian and I have to pee. But I want to ask one more question...
>> Devin: We are nearing our end
>> Brian: We are nearing our end. So I want to ask one more question. I'll combine this question. With the advent of..
>> Devin: Calendar
>> Brian: Of the... well actually the best thing the Catholic church ever did
>> Devin: Pretty funny Devin
>> Brian: No, the best thing the church ever did was create the calendar. The Gregorian calendar is what we live by. Come on guys.
>> Devin: My mom just sent me an advent calendar over email. No chocolate
>> Brian: It's pretty amazing. It's a feat of astronomy and will. Human will. And faith you know? But you know. I'm drinking Czech beer, I have to pee, my name is Brian. I want to know with all of our internets, and all of our technology, and all of the things that a Luddite like me fails to navigate properly - where does literature need to go in juxtaposition with all of this stuff?
>> Devin: Should we do like one at a time? Like a closing argument?
>> Brian: I don't know. Maybe we should do 1-2-3 and say a word that comes...no I don't know. I have to... my name is Brian and I have to pee.
>> Devin: Who is going to answer first?
>> Brian: I really have to pee. I think we already kind of touched on it. I think we all agree that indie presses need to take the mantle of literary work. But, you know...
>> Jared: Well I can say this much which is, which is... I don't know if it's at the risk of sounding too sure of myself. I don't know if I can say where literature needs to go but in relation to the last point there's no reason to think that literature won't go the way of blank verse or the way of poetry. It seems more recently that the short story... when I say literature I mean fiction, commercial fiction... there's no reason to think that commercial fiction is a timeless and commercially viable form. I suspect that where we are heading now... and this is an argument that I have made elsewhere... and this doesn't just apply to just literature. It applies to every medium whatsoever. Everything is moving towards a kind of subculture and that there is no canonical mainstream culture with a single knowledge base anymore. Everything will be niche in the future.
>> Brian: Which is what you think Jared. What was it, religion? Because literature wasn't the knowledge base before? You know what I mean? What was it?
>> Jared: What was that sort of canonical base of knowledge? Well it was religion for quite a long time and that after the Enlightenment I would say it was the tradition of Western literature and science. And science is still very well intact and literature is certainly not.
>> Brian: I really do think science... I think literature is never going to lose its value in the sense of whether you want to better yourself as an emotional human being in this world. We are nowhere close in mental terms, or what have you, to solving those kinds of issues that books can address. We are not even close. I was talking to my friend Ben who is training to be a psychiatrist, he's at the end of his residency, something like that. And I asked him when he thought talk therapy would be obsolete and his answer was never. I think that might be a little bit of a stretch unless we go extinct.
>> Devin: But it's now being commodified by apps. Like you can now get an app.
>> Brian: Yeah an app that sets you up with a therapist of whatever
>> Devin: I don't know where I can tell you where literature should go but I can tell you where it cannot go. And literature cannot hang onto the coattails of capitalism.
>> Brian: Right
>> Devin: Like if literature decides to commodify... especially literary fiction and poetry and whatever we ascribe as literature. Not like, pulp.
>> Brian: At the same time, it will depend on capital. Just like classical paintings at museums
>> Devin: I think the literature industry will, because it's part of the behemoth of capitalism, will live and die with it. But I think that it's up to people to create a haven for literature that is subversive, that is experimental, that is doing things with language and narrative that is against the grain of late capitalism. That's where it should go. I know that people will do that, I trust that people will do that. I trust that there are subversive enough people and motivated enough people and that they should. But the question is whether people can create a resurgence or a growth of like minded folks that... capitalism and literary fiction should never go hand-in-hand.
>> Jared: Devin, that assumes there's an authentic alternative in the market system
>> Devin: That's the problem
>> Brian: At some point technology will move us beyond the market system, a strictly transactional system. Because we already kind of live in a welfare state and that will be exacerbated when people aren't needed. I think literature is an analog in that literature is not needed, although it kind of is. It really is, still. But it isn't deemed as a necessary commodity, I guess you would say.
>> Jared: Well to take you up on your previous point, Brian, and then we can go to George since he hasn't spoken yet. What I'm hearing is that there are two models. The first model is the one you were talking about Brian which is that the purpose of literature is to be therapeutic and healing. And I'm actually very uncomfortable with that model of literature. And that motivation to write as a writer.
>> Brian: Devin's saying "wow" as if you disagree
>> Devin: I just like disagreement
>> Brian: I do agree with you Jared
>> Jared: I can give you my reasons for that
>> Brian: No, well let me say that I think it's a fine line. I think there's not one answer
>> Devin: Good literature can challenge. Good literature can comfort
>> Brian: And it can teach all that good stuff.
>> Devin: Literature should never harm
>> Brian: It depends on what perspective you are looking at it from. If you look at it from the reader's perspective, I think there can be a therapeutic value. But from the writer's perspective there is certainly an element of therapy in it but if you are doing it for that reason then you are in for a world of trouble because there is a lot of difficulty that surrounds writing that very much transcends therapy.
>> Jared: Yeah I'm not demeaning that. All I'm saying is that this model, this literary model, which is very much a post-David Foster Wallace model of literature, that literature can be redemptive in its ability to inspire empathy and make us feel less lonely. There's something a bit slavish about something that makes us a bit dependent about that. And I don't think literature is the only way out of feelings of loneliness. I think literature has a certain ability in giving us a window into someone's consciousness. That's something that other medium's can't provide. But it's certainly not our only way to empathy and I think in many respects, contrary to something like Wallace would have said, I don't think that our culture is seriously lacking empathy. I think if anything we are more empathetic as a species than we have ever been.
>> Brian: I agree
>> Jared: That may be in no small part to literature's contribution. But I don't think that literature is the only haven left that we have for empathy in our culture and I don't think that should be the model that literature should follow.
>> Brian: Far from it. I think the internet is the reason for it. I mean, straight up, there is no... and Google.
>> Jared: There's no empathy on Twitter
>> Brian: No but not Twitter. But being able to see around the world from your screen and also search anything you want. But anyway, George. Give us something about this from George's heart. From the bottom of George's pour...
>> George: (laughs) You talk about where literature needs to go. As a species, as a society we are thirsty for new content. We consume media and create media at a tremendously accelerated pace now because of the terrific proliferation of eyeballs. Everybody wants to go home and watch the next episode... I mean we have embraced the term "binge-watching" which tells you just about everything you need to know, right? You see tremendous investment in the creation of new content from a lot of the streaming services. Netflix, of course, has changed the game. Literature needs something like this. Literature needs a place where you can sell a book that's wrapped into some kind of subscription service where it's ok to take a risk. It's ok to start a book, decide you don't like it, and go to the next one, right? We need an easier delivery system for something that's traditionally bulky, for something that's traditionally a time investment like Jared was saying, right? If you could start a book from your seat, a new book, you didn't have to go to the library and you didn't have to go the bookstore... and of course you can do this with reading tablets and things like that... but of course you have to buy it and you have to sample a chapter, right? But if you could consume literature with the same speed and the same sort of ease that you consume much of the mindless, and quite good television shows that are coming out from the streaming services. I think it would change. The kind of books we would see would change, right? Some of the most successful TV shows of the last 10 years have been things that would have never been before this uptick... this sort of mass production. I'm thinking specifically of Game of Thrones. Who thought that was going to be the success that it was? I mean it's captured the world, right? It's so big. So I don't know. I think we need a better delivery system to encourage people to play in literature, to experience things that they wouldn't otherwise experience, and to make it a little easier. What is that? I don't fucking no.
>> Devin: I love play.
>> Brian: Well I mean, like. That harkens back to Dickens and all of them trying to serialize their stuff, right?
>> George: Yeah, in a sense...
>> Brian: Ok so Devin's giving me the slash-throat sign like he's going to piss his pants (laughter)
>> Jared: Devin looks physically miserable
>> Brian: Yeah, Jared can see him.
>> Devin: I have to pee so bad.
>> Brian: Ok so we are going to wind this down. I want a number from everyone. No, before we do the number...
>> Devin: The Egg McMuffin thing?
>> Brian: You're (Devin) working on a book, I'm working on a book, Jared's got a book of short stories coming out, George I know you have a book you're working, Katie's got a book... but do we have enough fast food stuffs for all of our books?
>> Devin: There's so much fast food. Everyone should compare their book...
>> Brian: But are we... are we...
>> Devin: Ugh you talk too slow...
>> Brian: Do we... do we... Devin... my name is Brian and I have to pee (George laughs). Do we want to just limit this to fast food? I mean are our books fast food? You know?
>> Devin: Some fast food is good?
>> Jared: No, absolutely not.
>> Devin: Alright my book is the fucking Chalupa of literature
>> Brian: Is that Taco Bell?
>> Devin: Yeah. Chalupa is the...
>> Brian: I have literally had Taco Bell once in my life.
>> Devin: You got the Chalupa, the gordita. My book is the TGI Friday's of literature.
>> Brian: Ohh, I love it. I love it
(George laughs)
>> Jared: My book is the Popeye's of literature
>> Brian: Goddamnit. How could you take that from me.
>> Devin: You don't know what you're getting but it's probably chicken. What are you, George? I want to know what George's is.
>> George: My book is definitely the McRib. Definitely the McRib.
>> Brian: Oh yes. The McRib, huh?
>> George: It's shaped like limited time.
>> Jared: You gotta get it while it's hot
>> George: You' want it while it's hot because that's the safest way to eat it.
>> Jared: And the species that it's made from will soon go extinct.
>> George: Yeah
>> Brian: I will close with a short anecdota to display what my book is. What fast food it is. And to Devin's chagrin. When I was a teenager, me and my friends got high as shit and went to McDonalds... I hope that one of us that was driving was sober. I don't know, we were high. Devin's going to pee, he's literally getting up to pee. Devin loses, that's all I want to say. We went to McDonalds, we went through the drive-through... in typical Birnbaum fashion, because I was a little imp, in addition to my order, I don't remember what I ordered, I requested infinity barbecue sauces with my order. That is my novel. It's an infinity of barbecue sauces
>> George: (chuckles) Infinity barbecue sauces. That's exactly what your novel is. I agree wholeheartedly
>> Brian: It is. We are done. Devin's desperate. Ok
>> Jared: Is that Devin? Devin is defeated
>> Devin: I'm ready. Let's go another hour.
>> Jared: Yeah, I'm ready to fucking roll man.
>> George: I'm sitting at a 9. You can't see it...
>> Brian: Ok, alright. Alright guys, I'm shutting this down. I'm going to make some closing remarks. Are you guys ready? Are you guys ready for my closing remarks?
>> Jared: Yeah. What are we going to do to sign off?
>> Brian: I'm going to say my name is Brian. I have to pee really badly. Uh, Devin cheated and peed before this was over. I'm a little miffed about it. And also don't forget to tune in for the Animal Riot Hour next time where we will be discussing... We are hoping to have Meher and Chelsea on for next episode. They are from the Angry Reading Series where they do about 9 blocks from us, if that. But yeah, that will be a good time. And be sure to stay tuned, as I said, about our launch parties that are scheduled in all of those lovely cities like New York, Seattle, Baltimore, and Little Rock. And we will announce the date for our first release, the book I have written "Emerald City". And hopefully we will have our website launch within the next couple weeks, I'm thinking? Yeah, a couple weeks. Thank you all and have a good night
>> Devin: Good bye!