Episode 17: Minorities in Publishing
May 9th, 2019
Hosted by Brian Birnbaum
Guest: Jennifer Baker
Produced by Katie Rainey
Welcome to the seventeenth episode of the Animal Riot Podcast brought to you by -- you guessed it -- Animal Riot Press. We welcome arts and social activist virtuoso Jenn Baker, host of the podcast Minorities in Publishing, contributing editor at Electric Literature, and many more things that you'll hear during her highly decorated introduction. Today we'll be talking about Jenn's work as a podcast host and activist for POC writers, editors, and artists, the responsibility of presses small and large to give voice to minority writers, and, as has become custom, we'll get to hear Jenn read some of her incredible prose.
>> Brian: Welcome to the seventeen episode of the Animal Riot Podcast brought to you by Animal Riot, a literary press for books that matter. I'm your host, Brian Birnbaum. We're here today with Jennifer Baker, who is quite a lot of things, including, but not limited to, the podcast host of "Minorities and Publishing", the recipient of the 2017 Miska Kniha Artist Fellowship and the 2017 Queen's Council on the Arts New Work Grant. These are all a mouthful. And editor of the anthology of Everyday People: The Color of Life, a contributing editor at Electric Literature and, of course, a widely published writer of fiction and nonfiction. And I recently got a chance to hear her contribution to a panel at AWP on how to make money as a writer, which I found both enlightening and slightly depressing because that is very difficult. Great. That was Yeah, that was a lot. This episode's brand of fuckary brought to you by the continuing crapulance brought upon us all by AWP. I think we can all agree on that.
>> Jennifer: (laughs) I think I'm on a better trajectory.
>> Brian: You're already feeling good?
>> Jennifer: Well, I was in Boston, So, like, got to get it together.
>> Brian: Yeah, that'll do it. I should also say our producers are on today, Katie.
>> Katie: I was about to say, I'm here. I have a mic this time. Normally, I'm just signing at Brian.
>> Jennifer: Oh really?
>> Brian: It's actual ASL for the record. Ok. Do you want to say anything else or add to that?
>> Jennifer: No.
>> Brian: You're good? Yeah, it was a lot. But I mean if you go to your website, there's a lot more.
>> Katie: What's your website? Let's plug that.
>> Brian: JenniferNBaker.com because Jennifer Baker was taken.
>> Katie: So was Brian Birnbaum. He's BrianSBirnbaum.com
>> Jennifer: You see, we've got a brand how we brand.
>> Katie: And on your website, you can go directly to Minorities and Publishing through the website. Which is an excellent podcast.
>> Jennifer: Thank you.
>> Katie: One of the many lit podcasts I've been writing about.
>> Brian: And your website's awesome.
>> Jennifer: Thank you
>> Brian: It's very well made.
>> Jennifer: Yeah, redesigned. Body Chan did that for me because I couldn't be bothered. And it's a tax write off like I was saying.
>> Katie: We've got to get into that because you know how to how writers need to manage their money or attempt to.
>> Brian: Very apropo just all around because Katie and I just did our taxes.
>> Jennifer: I'm sorry.
>> Katie: Brian threw a temper tantrum.
>> Jennifer: I don't blame you, they're horrible. And for this administration, it's horrible.
>> Brian: Yes, and there was a point where I owed thirty three hundred dollars and I was like, Okay, something's wrong. We have to backtrack. But anyway, it's neither here nor there.
>> Jennifer: That got resolved?
>> Brian: Yes.
>> Jennifer: I hope they're paying you.
>> Brian: Yes, they are.
>> Jennifer: That's how it should be.
>> Brian: Yeah, because as you discussed on the panel, all of us here, are experiencing credit card debt. It's a tough world out there, but yeah, Okay, so let's start with something that we said we were going to talk about. I want to start with your podcast. You know, the mission, how it came about all that good stuff and and whether it does relate... if one spawned from the other with we need diverse books.
>> Jennifer: I'm nodding
>> Katie: Yes is the answer to all of that.
>> Brian: So, yeah, just tell us what your podcast is about. Then we'll go from there.
>> Jennifer: I mean, it's pretty good branding. It's called Minorities and Publishing. And essentially, the partner, the podcast partner I had at the time. Bev, who you could hear on the first probably dozen or so episodes, we had both worked in publishing for a while. This will be my sixteenth year just in publishing. Full time job had all that since 2013 Fall.
>> Brian: Wait, you just dated yourself in a way that I did not expect. Sixteen years ago, I was not an adult, and I thought you were about my age just the way it looks.
>> Jennifer: I appreciate that because I was just asked to be on a panel of women over forty, and I was like, I'm not over forty. And I was like, why did you assume that?
>> Brian: Wow. Opposite reaction.
>> Jennifer: Cool. Cool. Like this is not cool. (laughter)
>> Katie: What did you say? And how did that email response go?
>> Jennifer: It was in the DMs thankfully.
>> Katie: Oh, how weird.
>> Brian: Yeah, I don't know. It's not the most fucked up thing you'll get in the DMs.
>> Jennifer: It wasn't. I don't appreciate that you assumed it because there's nothing wrong with being forty, but at the same time, I don't want you to just say we are having this panel with people who are several years older than you should be part of it. And I assumed you were older than you are. That's like, Yeah, I'm not, But that's fine. And what it was like, Not fine. I was polite. Honest mistake. So, yeah, I've been in publishing since 2003 because I graduated College City College, not too far from where we are in the Spring of 2003. And then I was very, very lucky to be able to get a job several months after I graduated. Which can be unheard off from people nowadays. It was crappy paying job. But it was a job.
>> Katie: What was it in?
>> Jennifer: I was an editorial assistant at one of the academic presses at St Martin's Press, so I worked near the flat iron, but not in the flat iron. So I worked in that, like, Madison Square area, and we all made, like, twenty seven, twenty eight thousand dollars.
>> Katie: Big money.
>> Jennifer: I mean, I was engaged at the time and living with my fiance so fine and all my co workers have roommates or lived in Jersey City. We all came in and none of them, I think maybe one of them's still in publishing. So that said, by the time that's 2014, we've been in publishing for a decade, and "we need diverse books" did start that time. It started in May, and the podcast went official in August of 2014.
>> Brian: So they were the same year?
>> Jennifer: Yeah. They both occurred the same year, and my podcast partner at the time just said, `` You know what? We're not talking about the people in the industry, The people like us who are actually working in it. We're talking about, we need diverse books, which is important, but that's outward facing right, but also the keepers themselves.
>> Brian: Exactly. Who's working in the industry because it's cyclical to just say, Oh, we need more people of color or, more you know, because how much more likely is it to get a book from a person of color? Who's going to be marketing them? Who's buying them? Who's distributing them? Who's doing every facet of the industry? Where are we as women of color? And my podcast partner is a queer woman of color. And so we just said, Let's have conversations with other people in the industry so that people know we exist because I think we should like... I don't think people think we exist, and that's really where it started from. It was really an inception of... It definitely was inspired by, "We Need Diverse Books", and I had worked with the for about three years at the time, from around the time they have began, but me and my partner at the time, we really, really wanted to look at the internal aspects of the industry, kind of shed light on it because it seems very mystifying to people, even though for us it isn't cause we work in it. Or, you know, I've subscribed to Writer's Digest in Poets and Writers is. But there's so many aspects that aren't talked about at all, let alone in a magazine. So that's really where it came from. And of course, you know, when you start, you're kind of like Who's going to be on the podcast? So we just had our friends for the first. And then when you get some street credit and then like "hey VP of this, do you want to be on my podcast?" I found, and maybe you found this too, people are very kind of apprehensive.
>> Katie: Oh yeah.
>> Brian: And it's gone two ways. I mean, even people that I have suggested to Katie like what we had, Dave Wisell on and like, you know he was great. And like at first, Katie was like, I'm not sure, like, you know, when he reached out to us and then she met him and she's like oh yeah, he's cool.
>> Jennifer: Yeah. You don't know.
>> Katie: But in terms of people coming on the podcast, people have been really apprehensive at first. Like, Well, what do I have to talk about?
>> Jennifer: Exactly.
>> Brian: Yeah. Like more of a self esteem issue.
>> Jennifer: Or what was really weird was when the people said yes, I'll be on the podcast, and then with ghost, and that hasn't happened a lot like four, five times over almost five years. But it was just really weird to get some people say yes and then just ghost. And then I would see him at a party, and then it's awkward. I'm not mad, but I'm just kind of like why? And then they're like, Is she pissed?
>> Brian: I used to have a very big phobia of, like, public speaking and stuff. I can kind of understand it.
>> Jennifer: Oh ok. Then just say no.
>> Brian: Yeah, or if you know, at some point it just like Oh, hey, like, you know what? Honestly, I am scared as shit, which is fine. I'm not going to be like, No you shouldn't be.
>> Jennifer: Exactly. I mean, this will be edited, but it was very interesting. A couple people did say, I hate my voice and that's why I never replied to you. But some people were just really weird. And I think I don't know, I'm not going kind of pull stuff out of the, you know, And it was just weird.
>> Brian: Is this when you were at Electric :it at this point?
>> Jennifer: I've been at Electric Lit for almost two years, and the podcast will be five. So really, I joined Electric Lic officially September two years ago. So right around the time Jeff Zimmerman came in as the new editor in chief. I came in as well on her heels, but the podcast has been around since 2004.
>> Brian: Where were you at the time? What were you working on this year? You know, quote unquote day job.
>> Jennifer: Well, the one I'm still doing a production editor at University Press which what pays my rent? It pays all my bills, let's be real.
>> Brian: Yeah, we discussed it a little at AWP. In front of hundreds of people. (laughter)
>> Jennifer: Yeah, I wanted to be honest. I don't know about Emily's situation because I know she runs Emily Books. I don't know what that is...
>> Katie: Is that the one that's affiliated with Coffee House?
>> Jennifer: I think so, Yeah.
>> Katie: Is it poetry?
>> Jennifer: No. Prose. She might do some poetry but I...
>> Brian: I gotta look into this. Coffeehouse is one of my favorite presses.
>> Jennifer: Yeah, it's a subsidiary or imprint. So maybe she and I are the only ones with, like, basically full time jobs that were on that panel. Since Dennis had recently quit there's. And Michelle's a full time student, and Marisa had said her job is basically The Rumpus and it's unpaid.
>> Katie: It's unpaid?
>> Jennifer: Yeah, vocally. So that she's like she works eighty hours unpaid.
>> Katie: Woah, eighty hours unpaid. I mean, let's not lie, we're working a lot of unpaid hours for Animal Riot. I can understand when you really love something, You love it, you know?
>> Jennifer: Yeah.
>> Katie: How many episodes of Minorities and Publishing have you done now?
>> Jennifer: Eighty five with several more that I have to edit, And that's been because it's unpaid, so it has gone by the wayside and that's sad because it's my project, and I really do love it when I sit down and edit it. But then I have to do this. And then I have to do my taxes after any of this, and I have to read these essays for Electrical have to edit this, and I have to do this. So I feel consistently behind and, unfortunately, unpaid thing that I love gets the shaft in a well. And so I'm thinking at the five year mark, I have to figure out whether it's going to continue or whether I have to readjust what it is. Meaning. It hasn't been biweekly podcast in months.
>> Katie: Is that what it's been to me?
>> Jennifer: It was meant today, and it was for a good four years ago. Good effort.
>> Katie: That is quite impressive.
>> Brian: That's pretty good. And I remember how at AWP talking about you did mention that you don't want to monetize it, right?
>> Jennifer: I don't have the time to monetize it, but also, when Bev and I had started it, we really didn't see this as of interest outside of our industry, which makes it harder, right, Because this is a niche. So it would really have to remain within the industry and then kind of be partnered up with somebody else, the way you know, fiction, nonfiction as part of a batch, the way that all these entities are kind of doing their own podcast now, like a lot of literary magazines or digital sites are now doing their own podcast. Book Riot, they sell ads. You know, they actually take breaks for commercial and says, Hey, this episode is brought to you by Penguin Random House.
>> Brian: Yes, and they do that 50 times.
>> Jennifer: Yeah, and I don't want to do that. I understand why they do that. I don't want to do that. And I'm a little bit of a control freak. So it is just a matter of what way can I kind of put it in good hands that I trust that it will still be open to people because I take self published people, I really like talking to industry people. And I feel is, though, if I partnered with an entity, it would become a publishing specific thing that is really feeding into whoever's paying the most money. So if I get money from Penguin Random House, I have to always talk about Penguin Random House and if I get money from McMillan then I always have to talk about MacMillan authors. And that's my concern is that I mean... was dealing with the same thing was that if publishers give her money, what does that mean? And what do they expect from that? Also the video channels like Epic Reads for Harper Teen, they only do Harper stuff because they want to create social media budget and their own industry rather than put it outside and make it kind of like a community based thing.
>> Katie: But honestly, I feel like if presses were especially like indie presses, if you're like trying to, I like that just feels so siloed and like a dead end to me that, like you, could create so many more avenues for listeners if you were just more inclusive of all different, like publishers and authors on there, rather than just plugging your own stuff.
>> Brian: It's kind of, I think, I see It is a symptom of, like, the Big Fives' overarching problem.
>> Jennifer: And potentially even Amazon because I don't discriminate, you know? So I would talk to Amazon Authors too. Either Little A or from the imprint they have a crap load of money. So if it became a monetary thing, there's that kind of expectation. It just it doesn't feel great.
>> Brian: And honestly, from what you know, I won't say anything like too much because I don't know too much. But from what it seems like with Little A, at least it's like it doesn't seem like it seems like they're following in the footsteps of the Big Five in terms of, like, not really supporting their authors as much as I think they should. I might be completely speaking out of turn.
>> Jennifer: I've heard various things from friends who have been published with little because they Vivian Lee is with Little A and she's amazing.
>> Katie: Oh I didn't know she was.
>> Jennifer: Yeah, Vivian Lee and Vivian Lee is such a champion. She's a wonderful editor. She goes specifically for marginalized artists and has published a few like... James Hahn Matson is a Vivian Lee author. And he was great to talk to. And so I think, you know, it's hard when you're part of a machine.
>> Brian: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like feeding publicity. Like putting money on the books and stuff.
>> Jennifer: Yeah, and that's just like separate from her job.
>> Brian: Yeah, exactly, exactly right. It's like you can, you know, as an editor, you can be behind a book so much like you pick it up. You're like, you know something you know so much, but really like, especially with Animal Riot, were just like we really want to say If we're picking up your book, we're going to put our weight behind it. You know, we're not We're not gonna waste your x number of years that you've worked on this thing. You know what I mean? So regarding the podcast, do you have any, like, favorite episodes?
>> Katie: Yeah if somebody was just like tuning in for the first time, what should they listen to?
>> Jennifer: A lot of times I tell people to listen to the marketing episode which aired last year, which less fall loan last spring, last spring. And it was funny enough it was with Bianca Salva who did the marketing on my anthology Everyday People. And she was so wonderful. I love Bianca and she's at a big five. And then I had Julissa Cory, who's at an indie, Lian Low, and they're both in marketing. And I said I wanted to pair them both up as women of color to talk about what are your experiences in marketing and what do you talk about? And it was they were literally Yin and Yang, like Bianco went to an hbcu. And Julissa is like I went upstate to an all white college.
>> Brian: Like Ithaca? (laughter)
>> Jennifer: Yeah, like Julissa had come into publishing after doing internships in apparel, and Bianca always wanted to be in publishing. Bianca had so many books that she was working with it. A big five where Julissa was like, way tighter. And they had a very small group, and they can focus on every group. So it was very interesting juxtaposition of their conversation as they agreed on a lot of points and then their experiences were just so different and they were very honest about this is what marketing is, and this is what can happen. And this is where you can get lost. This is, you know, our job is with sales. And if sales doesn't like your book, there's nothing we can do about that.
>> Brian: And did they agree on those subjects?
>> Jennifer: Absolutely interesting. Yeah, and they had just very different experience is being with two different kind of. So it worked out that pairing of me just saying I was going to have them both on separately. And then I said, `` Can we get together and talk about it? So sometimes that works like the debut episode with Leland Chuck, who had does 713 Books.
>> Brian: He was on your first episode?
>> Jennifer: He was in the first year.
>> Brian: Okay.
>> Jennifer: Mary Jacob, him and Sofia and I forget Sophia's name. So I wanted to have a debut episode. So I had a self published author in indie, which was Leyland, and someone with the Big Five, which was Mary Jacob. So I talked to them each for, like, twenty minutes a half an hour and then edited that down and compiled that into an episode where you can hear each is person's journey just so you can get so like I know when I am able to do these kind of combo episodes where you get multiple perspectives that works even better. Not to say the single person one doesn't, but I think those two really speak to showcasing the aim of the podcast, which is this is how the industry works and these are different perspectives that you need to know about rather than I'm just hearing from the Big Five. You need to hear from everybody and know that a Big Five person can have a bad experience or great experience. Just as much as a person with the indie can have an amazing experience or not great experience.
>> Katie: Those combo episodes are fun but they take longer to edit.
>> Brian: Oh my God! And then getting everyone together. And then the sound quality is different because one person's on the phone, one person was in person, and one person was on Skype. So you'll notice the sound quality for that. The debut episode is they're very different. They're very different.
>> Brian: Yeah, same with ours. We have like people calling in. And it's just like the sound quality's terrible.
>> Jennifer: It was like, Do you have birds? Do we hear birds that we're hearing way?
>> Katie: Well, occasionally we hear Rosetta. Rosetta might speak.
>> Brian: Is there like a moment or like a like an email or something, like a favorite something of yours that, like indicates like we did this episode, we're working on this and, like you can see how it's manifesting and like maybe your audience or the people you work with, as related to the podcast or even you know, that we need diverse books initiative. Anything like that? I guess a good analogy is like, you know, that we're all writers. We sit in a room alone, and we have it has zero impact on anyone.
>> Jennifer: In the moment (laughter)
>> Brian: And then finally, hopefully, you know, it does get out on then when it does like, you know, you might get, like, an email from someone like, my God, like I love this part or something. Is there something like that with your podcast where you're like, OK, this is like I can see people are listening, though, like, Oh, I'm better understanding the industry or whatever.
>> Jennifer: Yeah, Twitter is the best way for me to actually gauge that. And also the influx of requests that I've had over the past two years from publicists and authors. So when the podcast first started, we were It was all me asking. There weren't really people asking me to be on it. And then it became Can I be on it? I really want to be on your podcast. You're like, Wait, What? Why would you want to seriously? So that's been really great because it's been seen for public publicist specifically as a root for their authors to get visibility. But also it's really, really gratifying... I was at AWP. As we all established we're still recovering. (laughter)
>> Katie: Yeah, you've already been on other trips.
>> Jennifer: Then recover from the plague that happens every year. Knock on wood please.
>> Brian: I assume like twelve thousand people at that convention center basically hugging, shaking hands, drinking.
>> Jennifer: Yeah and I saw one of my guests SJ Sindhu, who I had been on with recently. She was on last year and she said, Can I just tell you that yours was the best interview I've done because you were the most considerate person to interview me and you didn't make me feel like I had to explain anything. And you just were you listen to what I had to say, and it was just a good banter of conversation, and that meant a lot to me because it meant she felt safe.
>> Katie: Yeah
>> Jennifer: And as a queer woman of color she felt safe in this space that I had created, and we had so many hiccups, like the fire alarm at my job went Google hangouts wasn't working so literally. I was on the phone with her for twenty minutes.
>> Brian: Those are reasons not to feel safe.
>> Jennifer: And waiting for the fire alarm not to go off. So we could actually continue the interview and that just met. That was really huge. And they hear that also from, like Jenny's saying to say, like, you were one of my favorites enters that sauce because, you know, I wasn't pigeonholing them. So how are you feeling about this? And do you experience this and it so coming at them from a place of like I actually won't talk about your book and your craft, But I want to talk about you as a person and not just talk about you being Asian? Are you writing about trauma? Are you know, I wasn't trying to pigeonhole them. So from the interviewer perspective, it just made me feel really, really good to know that I'm doing something that makes them feel, you know, gratified. And then from those who reach out just seeing statistics and saying, Oh, people really gravitated to the marketing episode or people really like James Matson and then seeing James Matson and saying, You know, I've never gotten tagged that much on Twitter from an interview. I said Seriously and it's not hundreds, you know, again, it's a niche market. But the fact that he's seeing and people are saying, I'm getting this book now or something like that and then they purposely tag him, you know? And that just means a lot. It just means it means something, you know, it means the listenership.
>> Katie: Eighty five episodes, that's quite an accomplishment.
>> Jennifer: We'LL definitely get to one hundred. If anything, we will get to one hundred.
>> Katie: And then you'll reassess.
>> Jennifer: I'll reassess after one hundred.
>> Katie: Would you pass it on to somebody?
>> Jennifer: Maybe. I don't know, uh, or just let it stand. Maybe I'll do season.
>> Katie: I mean, it stands is a valuable tool. And restore says that, you know? Like it's not like dated. I mean, it's very, you know.
>> Jennifer: Yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't just take all the episodes down or anything like that. I think there's value in them being up. But maybe I'll do season so maybe I'll do it for six months a year on and then those six months are, like, the only time rather than year round. She's like podcasts are boring (laughs).
>> Brian: She's a princess.
>> Katie: When we had the Amazon Book Club guys on here, she wouldn't stop barking.
>> Brian: Because tall men are just not her thing.
>> Jennifer: Yeah Rosetta. Against the patriarchy (laughter)
>> Brian: Yeah. She knows what's best. Well, how about Electric Literature? How do you feel about that?
>> Jennifer: That's not in my control. (laughs)
>> Brian: I do kind of see Electric Literature is kind of like a new age mecca of, like publishing, even though it's not like, you know, one of the houses, like, quote unquote, You know what I mean? But like everyone knows about it, like, those s like, you know, those Catapult or like Electric Lit essays, everyone sees those, you know?
>> Jennifer: Yeah, And Catapult is part technically. I mean, we have the same publisher.
>> Brian: Yeah, so yeah. What's your experience been like? Are there pros and cons related back to your podcast and the work you're doing there and stuff like that?
>> Jennifer: It's so separate because I'm not in the office because Electric Literature actually does have an office
>> Katie: Oh really?
>> Brian: That doesn't surprise me because Catapult has their own office.
>> Jennifer: Yeah, they have their own office in near the flat iron. So Electric Lit and catapult used to be in the same building and then Electric Lit needed to separate cause catapult was expanding on.
>> Brian: You know, you're, you know, making it when you got your own, like, cards against humanity sort of game.
>> Jennifer: Yeah, thanks you
>> Katie: And I was like, Okay, I have to spend twenty dollars for this Paper Cuts.
>> Brian: And it's very topical because one of the cards and there is white women in publishing on the first time I saw that like yeah...
>> Jennifer: Didn't they have a To Kill A Mockingbird. What's his face but racist (laughter)
>> Katie: I think it says something like Atticus, but not racist. Something like that.
>> Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah, that was a big moneymaker for us.
>> Katie: Really?
>> Jennifer: I don't mean in terms of Oh, we're now rich. But we sold out at AWP. We were kind of surprised by that because we had the "Read more Women" totes and that went like gangbusters last year. We assumed totes.
>> Brian: People want their entertainment.
>> Jennifer: Yeah, but apparently Paper Cuts was the thing. So there you go. So my experience has been great, but I really think Jess was a great addition, to, especially, it's and you've probably noticed this. It's changed. It's done a complete one eighty in terms of the content and is not to say that the content itself is has gone from essays to something else. And it's if you notice who's contributing, what the voices are, what the topics are. It's definitely way more conscious of being representative is definitely more female centered. And Jess is a hard core feminist, and Helene was a feminist, too. I think them combined really had a vision, especially just had a vision. And she was like, I want to publish as many women as possible and also conscious of the fact that she wanted to publish more women of color because we weren't represented. And I have said that when I had met with Halima, it's not very diverse.
>> Brian: Was this early on?
>> Jennifer: Helima knew about me from the podcast. It kind of circles back to when you had asked Do I make money from the podcast was like, Nope, but I get it. I have gotten money through the podcast, so I don't get it directly from it. I get it through it because then it associates me as, like, kind of an expert. I'm using air quotes.
>> Brian: So you're talking about, like the panel's you do and stuff like that?
>> Jennifer: Yeah, this discussion. It's funny because then people think I know everybody and I keep saying I don't know everybody. And then I show a picture of me and Jasmine Warren. I'm like, God damn it.
>> Brian: No big deal.
>> Jennifer: That doesn't help at all.
>> Brian: But I mean, I can understand where people might get that.
>> Jennifer: Yeah, you're all that. All these events you're talking to, all these people. You know everybody.
>> Brian: If I didn't have Katie, I would be completely isolated from the world, working on my little stories.
>> Jennifer: Big stories, big stories, sure.
>> Brian: My big boy stories (laughter).
>> Katie: What's been the most exciting thing that Electric Lit with come out recently that you're proud of.
>> Jennifer: One of my most favorite acquisitions was Marcus Gonzalez. I don't know if you always know Marcus. He's published a few stories, but more so essays. He's a queer Latinx, gay man. And well, that's double. I said Queer. And he was one of the first acquisitions I had and his essay really do well on Electric Lit and it was called... We retitled it, too, "when good writing means White writing". It's a little controversial to certain circles.
>> Brian: That's the title "when good writing means white writing"?
>> Jennifer: Yes, because he was talking about being a phD student and teaching students of color what good writing is dealing with faculty who deemed good writing to be.
>> Brian: I wish I had read this already so we could talk about this.
>> Katie: I'll look it up later.
>> Jennifer: Yeah, it's a really, really good essay. And then one recently was by Alejandra Olivera, which looked at Borders and Virginia Woolf. The issue of like how Trump is trying to close Borders and also Virginia Woolf, because she brought in the theme of rivers.
>> Katie: I saw that and it's on one of my tabs that's open.
>> Jennifer: Yeah, it was such a beautiful, beautiful essay because you wouldn't think even in my description of it is kind of, you know, kind of like the marketing pitch of like, yeah, it's an essay about that thematically weaves Rivers by using Borders and Immigration and Virginia Woolf, and that's just like the summary. But when you read it, it's so well done. And when you get essays like that, this is like holy crap, This is amazing. This is amazing. And again, they felt like they saw me write on Twitter, because I'm always, like read the freaking thing before you submit to me why I hate rejecting people unnecessarily stop it. By the way, email me. At Jennifer Electric lit dot com.
>> Brian: That's a good point. I was going to ask, like, just because a lot of this stuff that we talked about on this podcast, in light of what we're trying to do, is get, like, build a community And so people that feel outside of the of the like quote unquote New York bubble of like, publishing. How do I get involved? Are you trying to look for, like, any cold submissions from, like, women of color, people of color, just like just so that, like other people can feel involved? Because I know a lot of these essays get published by reference and which is not a bad thing, because, like, some of these people are really great writers, you know, there's a reason that they're known, you know, but yeah, I don't know. Just enlighten us for, like, what the procedure is with how you guys get submissions and decide what to publish.
>> Brian: Well, different areas of Electric Lit are kind of headed by different people. So recommended reading, which is poetry and fiction, that's the big person in charge is Halima, and then also Brandon Taylor works for that, and I believe Erin. Also Erin Burnett also works for recommended reading. I think Kelly moved over from Electric Literature to recommended reading. So, like the umbrellas, Electric Literature. But then we have imprints or verticals. And so the recommended reading one is not done by me or Jess or Joe like there's something we don't do that one. And then there's the commuter, which also was kind of tied to recommended reading because it's like flash fiction and stuff like that and like they like graphic stuff, too. So, like graphic novels or, you know, snippets, comic stuff like that, and they're open every so often they had a short period that just opened the beginning of April. Electrical Lit opens quarterly, and we're non fiction specific, and that's me, Jess, Joe, Lou and I believe Erin does some stuff for Electric Lit, too, but I think the bulk of her stuff is there, and so for us it's different plate, But everyone sees this is Electric Lit. So they assume we're all just like this big. We are a happy family, but it's just like, yeah, no I don't do that. I only do non fiction. And but for me as editor, editors can take stuff any time they want. So that's why I continually post about it on Twitter and Facebook and say, Send me stuff, send me stuff.
>> Brian: So it's just kind of when it would get put up?
>> Jennifer: Yeah, yeah, if it's timely I would try to work on a faster or send it to Jess to just to work on a faster if I couldn't. I respond to everything. So Jess is getting pitches, but she's also looking at the submittable. Submittable gets hundreds and the recommended reading gets even more. They get like thousands because it's fiction. Because it's any type of fiction. I mean, they have a very kind of specific. They kind of like weird stuff. They like, kind of experimental. But it's fiction, so it's so open, they get so many things. Whereas for Electric Lit, ours is really like is it tied to books, media, you know, Is it analysis? Is that a personal essay is that an interview? Is it a book list? Ours is a bit more controlled, so I respond to everything I get, which is also what takes me a little bit more time. And I think people, I don't think people take advantage of it. But I think people get excited because I actually will tell people I read the piece. If I feel like there's something I can edit, I edit it. But most time I actually read it, and I would give you, like, very specific feedback on what's not working. I mean, if it literally is just This makes no sense for our publication it's just about my, no offense, Rosie, if it's just about my dog and has no tie to like media literature. That's auto reject. But I will tell you that's the reason I'm rejecting it. But if it's an essay that's been written, I will tell you Hey, you know your stuffing eighteen things in here, you're contradicting yourself. The voice isn't right. It sounds more trading mag than lit mag or something like that. So I try to give that consideration to writers. So you know you're not just getting a form rejection. You're getting concrete feedback on why this is not working.
>> Brian: And and they also know that they are actually being read, which I think is important. We've discussed that so much just for us. And we I don't have nearly the amount that you have to know.
>> Katie: How many submissions are you getting?
>> Jennifer: I get dozens again because I don't go through Submittable. A medical and also my email for Electric Literature isn't all over the place. The way Jess is hers is on her Twitter, and she's the editor in chief and she has a bigger following than me. So obviously she would get a bit more, but she goes through the submittable, and so that's a trial in itself. I'm sure if I was in the office, they might ask me to do that. But I'm not. They know I have a full time job, something like, Yeah, I get to.
>> Katie: But you really enjoy it?
>> Jennifer: I do enjoy is just you know then I feel guilty when I can't get back to people fast enough. But at the same time, I just put out an office on out of office that says, thank you for reaching me. I will get back to you with some weeks, which makes me feel better, because they're getting some kind of reply. Says I acknowledge you have sent me something, Whereas when people don't, they go Hey did you read it?
>> Katie: That's a really funny thing that you bring up because, like I have obviously been dealing with that from the reading series for the last five years. People get really anxious and it's like, I mean, when we first started that we were getting hundreds of submissions and we would try to read them monthly and it was just insane, it was it was so much. Now we do on a rolling basis, and our inbox gets quite full. But people get really angsty when you when you don't I should do that, the auto reply.
>> Brian: I've been guilty of that a lot being angsty, and I have had to tell him so many times.
>> Katie: And I generally have to say to him like these people are probably all doing this for free and have huge jobs and you know, are doing it because they love it, but like they just are swamped. It's just people with huge lives like you have to give them time.
>> Brian: One of my biggest issues was not asking whether they read it like it was when people actually accepted something of mine. And then I didn't hear from them again for like, a few weeks after that. And then I'd be like, Oh my God, what's happening?
>> Jennifer: I've been that person just like, yeah, we want this, I'Ll give you edits. And three weeks later it's like Here are the edits (laughs)
>> Brian: I have something that's going to go up on LitHub and like it's like...
>> Jennifer: Congrats
>> Brian: Thanks. And it's the same thing. But now I feel like now I'm, like, way more relaxed about it, but like I've gone. I've gone through it, but yeah, it's the same thing, and I'm now. I just know it's like they're probably not going to get back to you when they said they would and like, I understand it and like I get it now. So I'm just I feel better.
>> Jennifer: I still feel guilty because I say two weeks and I mean it when I say on and then it's like crap, I got sick or I was travelling or my full time job got busy these past two months have been horrible. Not horrible, Horrible could be way worse. But like my computer died at my full time job, that takes me out of commission for two days. And then my authors were difficult and that everything was sending me stuff late and then everyone to get on the phone. So these things, they're kind of concentrated in my full time job that if everything had gone as planned, I would not be behind theoretically and other areas. And so, yes, I am way behind on many people, and it's funny because I said I'm at AWP. And then they said I know you're at AWP but...
>> Katie: I got so many of those emails. (laughter)
>> Jennifer: I acknowledge that you were not here and then say, however, Did you do that?
>> Brian: It's an e mail that basically just goes, we're waiting.
>> Jennifer: But they're real chill. Really polite. Like I hope you're doing well. And I totally understand if I would make sure that you saw e mail, and I just I just never I don't think I've been that person. And I think I think because I've had the privilege of being in publishing where you just like, they'll get to you. If they haven't got to you in a month then you think you have got to six weeks and then you do something.
>> Brian: Yeah.
>> Katie: So you do so much in the community and like, you just do so much in general. I mean, with the podcast, everything how's your own writing going. I know you write a ton. I see all your tweets that like a work in progress. So many words makes me feel bad about myself.
>> Jennifer: Join the fun.
>> Brian: Hashtag WIP. Hashtag am writing.
>> Jennifer: It's like, no you're on Twitter. (laughter)
>> Brian: Sometimes I do go on Twitter, and I'm like, I really love this community. But like so many of the tweets are like, Should I name my character, Kayla, or Roger? I'm just like aw man.
>> Katie: A lot in the writing community. And people just don't want to tweet like they do. They want interactions. I get it. Writing's lonely and so, like, You're like let me just send out this tweet and get people to respond.
>> Brian: Yeah
>> Jennifer: that's so interesting. Fair enough. Mine is actually going very well because I figured out my practice.
>> Katie: What's your practice?
>> Jennifer: My practice is... you probably saw the hashtag like forty five scenes. Forty five days.
>> Katie: Oh, yeah. What is that?
>> Jennifer: So Yeah, what I needed to do for myself was the issue at hand. It was continually that I was putting these kind of parameters on myself that wasn't realistic. So do an hour, a day, an hour day doesn't sound like a lot of time. But if I did twenty minutes on the subway, and then I got home, and then I am ready to go to bed and it's like crap. I had to write for forty minutes, and I don't want to do that, but I'm going to make myself write for forty minutes. And that wasn't working. It used to work. So the things change. Also, your practice changes as your life changes and I'm way more busy. And I was five years.
>> Brian: I actually think it's dangerous to, like, put yourself in a box and say, No, this is what I did before. I have to do this.
>> Jennifer: Yeah, just yeah, like if you're a parent or anything, or you lose your job, your caretaker, anything you moved to a different state, you just never know.
>> Brian: Or you just worked on something for a lot, like a really long time. You just need a break or something like that.
>> Jennifer: That's real. And so for me, I realized I needed to just equate it to something that I can do and be okay with having done a little bit. So scenes. So I figured I would do a scene a day and do it for a finite amount of daylight. Sixty days, ninety days, every day I had to write a scene and the scene could be super short. It could be she walked into the kitchen. I saw that there was no food and left. I didn't write that. But, you know, that's an example. And that would be a scene, you know. That's a moment in a piece on. Then I would be done. That would be it. Or I could sit and really have a beyond role and write hundreds or thousands of words that day. And so I did that. And once I did that, it worked because I sat down. I did it. I could've done it for fifteen minutes. I could've done it for forty five minutes. But I did it and then I was done. I never had to do it again unless I wanted to that day, and that was just way more doable. So it was. If I got something done on the subway to work, I don't have to worry about doing it on the way home. If I did it on the way home that I didn't have to worry about it. I did during my lunch break and again it could be any length. And that really worked for me.
>> Katie: So you're doing that now? What's the project you're working on right now?
>> Jennifer: I jump around cause I work on so many things at the same time, which is a good or bad thing. I don't know, but I'm a big believer in breaks too. So I need to take breaks from that thing that stuff. I've been working on a big novel. I can't look at that after a month. Let me look at that essay that I drafted years ago. So that's essays, that short fiction. It's a novel. And so for this latest round, I did ninety and then I did sixty. And then I did forty five. And then I think I'll do thirty and then probably go back to ninety and do it. But then I take breaks after that too. So after I did the ninety, I took a month off. After I did the sixty I took a month off. After I did that, I took a month off and took, you know, and so on and so on. And so I think the big thing that has been a novel. And I've actually I'm almost done looking at the full draft of it and just gutting it.
>> Brian: That's the best part.
>> Jennifer: And it's been great.
>> Katie: Do you have a title?
>> Jennifer: Forgive Me Not. It's about incarceration.
>> Brian: Oh we have had two episodes about that.
>> Jennifer: Already? (laughs)
>> Katie: You know Caits Meissner right?
>> Jennifer: Yeah.
>> Katie: She was on with Devin for the first one because she is the director of Pen America on Prison Writing. Then the second episode we had her with Sergio De La Pava.
>> Jennifer: Oh.
>> Brian: We couldn't go enough an episode without mentioning him. I need a restraining order. I idolize them. Him and his wife, Susanna, are just like the most amazing people
>> Katie: Anyway, we did two episodes on prison reform and stuff.
>> Katie: It was check.
>> Jennifer: Check those out.
>> Brian: Especially the one with Sergio. I mean, the one with Devin is great, but with Caits and Sergio, I think it might be my favorite.
>> Jennifer: I love Caits.
>> Katie: Oh, yeah, she's has the best podcast voice I've ever heard.
>> Jennifer: Because she's a poet.
>> Brian: Yeah, it's like silk chocolate.
>> Jennifer: I've known Caits for over a decade.
>> Katie: Wow.
>> Brian: Did you see her at AWP?
>> Jennifer: I did at the Pen booth. I judged the the Writing for Justice one last year. She was the leader for that. She was wonderful. She's just a wonderful person.
>> Brian: Yeah, she's great.
>> Katie: So your novel's about you said mass incarceration.
>> Jennifer: Yeah, and that's as much as also.
>> Brian: Okay, respect it. Well, I want to talk about indie presses now.
>> Jennifer: Yes, let's talk about indie presses. Let's talk about Animal Riot press. Let's do that.
>> Brian: Well, do you guys want to start with like the responsibility that indie presses have? I would really like to talk about that.
>> Jennifer: Ok let's talk about it.
>> Katie: What are they, Brian? What are our responsibilities?
>> Jennifer: What is your mission (laughs)
>> Brian: Well let's do like indie press is like for, you know, serving the marginalized communities. What do we have to do? What do we absolutely have to do. What are things that we should be looking to do? What are presses failing to do, You know, all that good stuff?
>> Jennifer: Well, what I experience being with the Big Five presses, and this is not to say that they failed my book at all, the anthology, and it's an all POC anthology for people who don't know, which is kind of like, very specific.
>> Brian: I just ordered an all deaf anthology recently. So you have those are very interesting.
>> Jennifer: Yeah, they are very specific. But not so abstract as to not be able to serve the larger market.
>> Brian: Totally.
>> Jennifer: And so I think the issue is, and Bianca mentioned that on the marketing podcast I was talking about, was the issue of being overwhelmed. And so everything is a one fits all on. That's where indie presses have the strength Theoretically, Yeah. I use the word theoretically a lot. And it doesn't because a smaller staff, smaller budget and you have to do so much more reach. Whereas a lot of these Big Five are owned. Simon Schuster is owned by CBS. A lot of people don't realize that, you know, But it doesn't mean I'm going to be on CBS. It doesn't guarantee anything but you own by such a large entity you're in midtown. You're right near Rock Center that, you know, it really kind of makes it hard to distill what a book is, and that's due to budgeting. And that's due to belief systems. And that's due to who's there. Whereas I think I work for University Press and we also have our issues. But with University presses and indies, there is that more hands on quality and hopefully being more strategic because you're acquiring less.
>> Brian: Well, it's actually really good to hear you say that because I mean, this is on that Katie has been very adamant about and like, it's been tough for me because...
>> Jennifer: What do you mean adamant about what?
>> Brian: About being strategic, about looking for making sure we're looking for, you know, women authors, writers like, you know, people of color, you know, stuff like that and like it can be tough because you get so many submissions and you want more of those.
>> Jennifer: Yeah, it's also taste level, right? Just because you want more Writers of color doesn't mean the ones you're getting to fit with your aesthetic.
>> Brian: Exactly. It can be difficult. That's, you know, that's really the big issue is like, you know, especially for us, like we're looking for a third book, and it's like we want to make sure that we're doing something different than our first two. We don't want to be like associating with just like white male writers.
>> Jennifer: Lyland said similarly, for 713. And like we mentioned at the talks, a lot of his authors have been white, and he's Asian. He's very pro POC, but this is also he acknowledged, that this is what works for his aesthetic. He likes humor, he likes a certain kind of voice, and he's not getting that from POCs and and this is what's working. And it's not because he doesn't have access. It's because of his own taste level. What he's published before. What not to publish again. So people are having issues. POCs as well.
>> Brian: I understand what you say, especially because, you know, he has an aesthetic and like it's you know, it can be difficult, you know? You want Oh, you read what you read and you know, let's say you have no name on the page. He's gonna pick what he wants to pick, right?
>> Jennifer: Exactly.
>> Brian: But how do you get around that? Like, what? Do you think there are any good strategies to make sure that you're finding diversity without sacrificing your aesthetic or you're like your vision, you know? I mean, he is a one man band. Yeah, this like yours. They're very, very small team. He's a one man band. He brought on Hasanthika Sirisena, who is actually in my anthology. He brought her on as an editor.
>> Katie: That's right.
>> Brian: She's the only other one?
>> Jennifer: She's the only other staff member.
>> Brian: Are they getting paid for this?
>> Jennifer: I don't know.
>> Katie: I just said both unpaid like everybody's in pain.
>> Jennifer: I mean, you're putting that money in as a business owner.
>> Katie: I mean, Brian's taken anything that we make from his book and putting it back into the press for future writers.
>> Brian: Despite being broke as shit.
>> Brian: So the panel that you were on basically learned nothing is essentially the take home message.
>> Jennifer: Now, you learned to conduct your taxes and negotiate.
>> Brian: I'm gonna negotiate a really high royalty just put it back in any way just to say I did it.
>> Jennifer: I'll submit that panel for Philly.
>> Brian: Yeah, perfect.
>> Katie: Are there any indie presses that you think you're doing really well in this aspect?
>> Jennifer: I do.
>> Brian: Well, I do want to first say that you You said Leland brought someone else on. And you think that was basically just having that eye is one of the biggest solutions?
>> Jennifer: Well Hasa is in a university setting, whereas Leland is in New York. Hasa is in New England. She's not in D. C. She's near D. C. So I think actually, she might be Maryland. I forget like she's Virginia, Maryland, like one of those, like so probably not New England. But that's also a lot another level of access. We're in the education field when you know you're someone who probably does more conferences, oohs and stuff like that. You have your actually travelling. I don't know that Leland has much time to do scouting. And that's a big thing because even big publishers use scouts. A friend of mine, Nana Brew-Hammond, who's also in the anthology. I swear I'm not name dropping for the anthology specifically.
>> Katie: I love it. Get the anthology out, Everyday People. What's the name again? Everyday People. (laughter)
>> Jennifer: Ah, as she has been doing scouting for other people and she's a Ghanian American author, and so they're like, Well, who do you know? Do you know the African writers? And she tends to go to a lot of conferences in Africa
>> Brian: Is she first generation?
>> Jennifer: Yeah, but she lived in Ghana for a lot of years. I think she might have dual citizenship, but, you know, because of that reach because she knows a lot of the African authors and, like, well, who you know. And we'll pay you and you know, So if you can afford to get that were have someone volunteer their time, you know, something like that that can really really help. But I think it's that foresight because, like, we're talking about offline, you know, in doing some judging for contests. And I've noticed this for more than one contest. Unless it was specifically and I tweeted about this yesterday unless it was specifically for POCs, not a lot of POCs submit for these contests, and I've in some cases, they're blind. In some cases, they're not. But, you know, I could kind of tell from the writing, you know, how they're writing about places them like I don't think you're been to Uganda. You're talking about huts. Pretty sure they're not huts. And so well, how do you get that out? You can't just keep tweeting if the if they're not following you already. You tweeting it is not helping.
>> Brian: Yeah no one is there. It's an empty room.
>> Jennifer: Yeah, and so you asking like POC channels to tweet. Twitter is such a fast mechanism if you miss it, if you're not on from eight to ten or whatever and it was tweeted at nine are you going to see it? Potentially not. Again, it's like the assumption of the more we get people to share it, it will be heard. And that's again in theory. But how are they doing out there doing the emails? Are they just posting on social media? Posting on social media is not enough. How are we actually getting to people. Publishers Weekly actually puts out calls to publishers and says, Hey, we're doing this feature on Westerns. Do you have any books that might fit this feature? And they will send straight to the context they have at a publisher, and then they'LL get all these responses. Like, Absolutely, we have this coming out in 2019. That's an entity that has that access. But also that time to do that are book contests doing that? Are indeed publishers that? Are they going? You know the HBCU going to all the MFA programs? Are they going to the creative writing summer conferences? Are they going to the Jack Jones retreats? Hey, I have this. Can you email it to your people? Not just tag you on Twitter? Can you share this on Twitter? And I'll do it like what once maybe twice if I remember. Can you put it in your newsletter? Can you email it to people and newsletters? Can you connect me with people? Will you be on my board if I have a board? Is it not kind of like the superfluous board that just in name. So you just look at the names on board. Are they actually helping you connect with people?
>> Brian: CD pluggers or whatever.
>> Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah, it's for grants a lot of time. That's for grants. It's like see we have, you know, Roxanne Gan on our board, you know, You get a grant. So it's so much more work and that's the thing. I think people think it can really just be this easy. And that's the whole issue that I saw and working in publishing and We Need Diverse Books with. Everyone thought, okay, now we have this thing we have. We Need Diverse Books, so We Need Diverse Books. Gives us our approval and if We Need Diverse Books, talks about our books we're good. It's like No, no, no. We actually need you to change the system.
>> Brian: Yeah.
>> Jennifer: Yeah, I'm not going to do that. Can you? You know, but we hired more interns. Cool. But we need you to change the system. Okay. We've got more interns. No, cool. What? We need to change the system. Okay. We're going to have a pizza party for the interns. (laughs)
>> Katie: Oh my God.
>> Jennifer: No, you need to change the system. It's pretty bad.
>> Brian: Yeah. And what you're saying is really tough because no, you're absolutely right. I think scouting is so important and you know, someone that we're trying to bring on now. And I'll just say it Annie Krabbenschmidt, she writes essays about what you know, coming to realize that she was gay and, like all that's like how hard it was for her and how funny it is in retrospective and some turns and twists, but yeah, I mean, she came and read at Animal Riot, and I was like, I'm going to talk to you after.
>> Katie: I think that's more of what we're really trying to do. I feel like Graywolf does a really good job at it. I don't know how you feel, but I've been some of their books that I've been coming out from African writers. There's like this experimental wave coming out of certain African countries that I'm like in love with, and that's something I would really love to find.
>> Brian: Yeah.
>> Jennifer: Yeah. But if you look at Graywolf, a lot of their staff is not POC. I mean they're doing better in terms of if you look at their roster would be kind of shocked by that. Like wait you have Wayétu, Carmen, Jamel, and Esmé. You have so many POCs and yet on staff, they're not as great. I love their books. I pimp their works all the time.
>> Brian: So they're doing a good job of picking, but...
>> Jennifer: Absolutely. And letting them stay to their voice because all the authors I heard that have worked with them have loved them. They didn't feel pigeonhole. They didn't feel they...
>> Katie: We're reading, "She Would Be King".
>> Jennifer: Wayétu is wonderful.
>> Katie: My kids. I don't know if you've read it, but like they, they're making their own Gbessas right now.
>> Jennifer: Oh my God, that's wonderful.
>> Katie: I have been tagging her all over. They have been drawing Gbessa with red Afros and it was pretty cute.
>> Jennifer: They should've done on Instagram because she's very much on Instagram, not as much on Twitter.
>> Brian: We saw at KGB, I'm going to do my best to, like, remember things here. Do you remember? Do you remember that first reader who was writing this? It was Ah. Oh, my God! I almost want to get on Facebook to figure this. Ah, someone affiliated with Mason Jar.
>> Jennifer: Okay.
>> Katie: Oh, Justin Sanders.
>> Brian: Justin Sanders. He was He's writing this like historical fiction, but it's like contemporary, you know, And it's about, like, police brutality. And I heard him read a KGB and I was trying to do that thing where I was coming up. It was like, when they when you're done this like, uh, it was like I thought it was amazing and had so much energy.
>> Jennifer: And it was prose?
>> Brian: It was prose. Yeah, it's, I would assume I would call it. It's like in cold blood. You know how that's like, you know, that kind of deal. But it's like about police. There is, you know, that he read this scene about the like the's white cops who had, like, swastikas on them. Or so like, I don't know. They like Confederate something, you know, some sort of racist thing going on. And like that, he wrote about one of these like beatings and, like, you know, police brutality murders. It was really great. And I went up to him and and, like I was just like, you know, let me know when you're done he was just like, Yeah, like, you know, it's just so hard because you gotta catch someone right when they're, like, ready and ready to have something finished. But, yeah, I'm gonna be on him for sure, for sure. I'm trying not to I'm trying not to stalk. It's been like it's been like, four months, but I'm gonna check up on him.
>> Jennifer: That's nice. I think that's nice.
>> Brian: Yeah. Also, because we want to make sure that, like, we're not pressuring people that we're talking to, you know, we don't want to like, we don't want to be like, Hey, like, are you done yet? Like, this is, you know, whatever. I don't know.
>> Jennifer: Because he's also or whomever might just be like, Well, let me see what you've done, just like with the podcast, right?
>> Katie: True.
>> Brian: Totally.
>> Jennifer: See what you've done before I say yes or no.
>> Katie: But frankly, that's why we're using our own books first. It's because, like, it's well, one. Any mistakes we make, we want to make sure we mess up on our own stuff and not on somebody else's.
>> Jennifer: It's all learning.
>> Katie: Yeah.
>> Jennifer: Publishers don't know everything that you take all the time. They just have more money to make the mistakes. That's the difference. Way more money to do it.
>> Katie: Well, what about your writing? Are you going to read something for us?
>> Jennifer: Sure. I will read something incredibly short.
>> Katie: I always feel like when we bring lit people on to talk, especially people like editors are running their own, you know, publishing houses and stuff, Caits and I were talking about how we were talking about how we spent so much time talking about Pen America. And we're going to have her back on as her artist self soon.
>> Jennifer: Oh my God. Hearing Caits read is an experience.
>> Katie: We're going to do that in the next couple of weeks with the person who runs the operating system, LA? So they're both going to come be on this show.
>> Jennifer: I can't wait to hear. I haven't heard her poetry in so long.
>> Katie: What are you reading?
>> Jennifer: I am going to read a short scene from a short story has been going on forever.
>> Katie: So not one of the hashtag forty five scenes?
>> Jennifer: I might have worked on this on hashtag sixty six. (laughs)
>> Brian: Is this another in progress? Or is this something that you've already put up?
>> Jennifer: I thought it was done and then I realized I get hit with things in the shower again.
>> Brian: I get that feeling all the time.
>> Jennifer: This is how you fix it! (laughter) Oh my God.
>> Katie: Yours is the shower? Mine is generally when I'm just anywhere else but in front of a computer. (laughter)
>> Jennifer: It's on a bike, too. When I walk or when I'm biking.
>> Brian: Yeah, that's why I preach patience with writers. That's like the first thing I say is because, like the longer you work on something, I'm not saying it's always necessary. But generally you're going to find things that, like, you know.
>> Jennifer: Absolutely, and not even in the workshop, you know, you can get hit with all of this really good information of how people are reacting and feeling. And then three months later Oh, it's none of that.
>> Brian: I think a lot of times for me and I'll be talking to someone like i'll be like talking at Katie about like, Oh, yeah, this is the part I'm writing and it's about this. And then in the middle of the sentence will be like, No, that's fucked up. (laughter). That needs to change.
>> Jennifer: It felt so good.
BrianL Yeah, I think that once I encoded it into English, like from my head. It's like, Yeah that doesn't work.
>> Jennifer: Sometimes I'm dreaming and I said, I got a lyric essay, That's beautiful. And then I wrote it and I said, This is really this sounded so much better at 5 AM when I didn't want to leave the covers because it was super warm, and had to go to the bathroom, but I didn't.
>> Katie: Do you ever write any kind of poetry or anything?
>> Jennifer: I wrote poetry in high school because I was a big Dickinson fan. So I wrote a lot of angsty Dickinson esque stuff about my period.
>> Brian: Beautiful.
>> Jennifer: So bad. (laughter)
>> Brian: You don't have to share that tonight. It's fine.
>> Jennifer: I still have it. I think it's just a way of saying, you've grown.
>> Brian: Well in that case (laughs)
>> Jennifer: We're talking about a Coke bottle and you know, aspirins and cramps. (laughter) You've grown. Grown in twenty twenty or so years since I was a Emily Dickinson phile.
>> Brian: We'll do a separate episode on that.
>> Katie: Wait so before you read, you read, when was the last time you read at Animal Riot? That was like a year ago, right?
>> Jennifer: That was before the anthology came out.
>> Katie: So that was like a year ago, right?
>> Jennifer: That was more than a year ago. It was warm out.
>> Brian: I don't remember that.
>> Jennifer: But I just know. I know it was more than I think it was warm out because my best friend was back in the States and he teaches overseas. He didn't come last summer. He came the summer before. It was almost two years.
>> Katie: Wow that's crazy. I'm excited to hear it again. It's been a minute.
>> Jennifer: Yeah, it's something completely different. Are we ready?
>> Katie: Yeah.
>> Jennifer: Alright.
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It was hard to say how it started. Maybe it was when she came home, arms full of supplies. For some reason, and she knew why deep down, there were always necessities. Things as basic as butter or soap. Yeah the rent was paid more often than not, yet she found herself stocking up regularly to keep them both fed, clean, and asses properly wiped.
She entered their apartment to him and his friends spread out around the living room like a brokedown Kool and the Gang. The same group she’d learned to laugh with and cuddled with Russell in front of. Russell & Co. had arms dangling off the sides of the sofa or limbs folded and stretched around their living room, end tables pushed aside for bodies to lay about, a kind of smoky astringent in the air.
Maybe it was when she harumphed. Could’ve been the slamming of doors and cabinets to reveal her displeasure at everyone lounging, eyes glazed over, slouching with heads drooping every which way while she unpacked after a day with fourth graders. (She simply wanted clean air and quiet.) Could’ve been her reply of “Get it yourself” when Russell said “Baby, grab me a soda?” and the underlying “oohs” heard amidst his people when she stormed off to the bedroom. Perhaps it was the glance at the marble end table, a barrier along with the men splayed on the floor, where she spotted dust, remnants reminding her of wiping flour from her mother’s countertop. Might’ve been a good idea for her to pay attention when one of his friends said Scarsdale in that playful yet mocking tone with, “Man, what you know about being Black. You just look it” and “Light-skinned nigger with his light-skinned female.” Before someone else chimed in that “light skin” and “nigger” didn’t belong in the same sentence, which resulted in cackles morphing to coughs. All this was followed up with a crack of something and a “The fuck is wrong with you!” prior to the trample of bodies and the slam of a door.
It may have been any of those things that led to Russell coming into the bedroom and pushing her, hard. Her back was to him so she thought it playful at first when her side got jabbed by the corner of a dresser. Like he didn’t realize his strength until she turned around, saw his face, and the smack happened. Holding a throbbing cheek she cried, “Negro, you crazy?” before smacking him in the face.
“Are you crazy?” he responded, gyrating his jaw to ensure plasticity. Russell prepped his arm ready to launch. The signs were there. The eyes, the lips, the rage.
And they went at it.
Don’t think she didn’t go for the goods. He got hip to it, locking his knees as he twisted his lower half, going on to shove her. Into walls, onto the bed, against open drawers leaving nicks. She had force too when she landed blows, chipping at every bit of him she could access. Bruised afterwards the tears started up. They woke up to knots on foreheads, not just puffy cheeks but puffy eyes from lack of sleep. He rolled on top of her spouting love, pomp & circumstance, then he was in her. That was the apology. She moaned and he was gentle again. They swore this was it. That was the lie.
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>> Brian: Brutal.
>> Katie: Also, the police siren went off.
>> Jennifer: I know how applicable.
>> Brian: Yeah, I like it. Katie hates it usually, but I love it.
>> Katie: It worked. It was like a sound effect.
>> Jennifer: I hate it personally too during my podcast. So let's talk about the publicity of a (sirens) (laughter). You're like dammit.
>> Brian: It's that New York vibe.
>> Jennifer: And this took place in New York.
>> Brian: There you go.
>> Katie: Wait, is it nonfiction or fiction?
>> Jennifer: Fiction. She's nameless in the story.
>> Katie: I like that when people do that. Like call characters by, you know, like the girl or something like that or just like I don't have a name, you know?
>> Jennifer: Yeah, it's hard as hell to write.
>> Katie: There's something about, like, leaving it up to the reader and like having them take ownership of it.
>> Brian: Yeah, I figured if what's her face, who did like, what is it "Bringing in the Bodies? Oh, yeah. Hilary Mantel. They're all like Thomas or Henry.
>> Brian: It's historical fiction so it's all those English motherfuckers. Thomas Cromwell.
>> Jennifer: Exactly. And then she doesn't keep saying Thomas Cromwell. She just says Thomas and you have to figure out after a moment. Okay, it' that Tom.
>> Katie: Is that what this is inspired by?
>> Jennifer: Yeah, that's what this is inspired by.
>> Brian: To me, Hilary Mantel is like the Scorsese of, like, historical fiction.
>> Katie: That's a pretty good endorsement.
>> Brian: Seriously, It's like it's like a gangster movie. It's insane. Like I was like, That's so good.
>> Jennifer: Also Goodfellas. It's very Goodfellas esque. It's all the political going on. How actually the bodies do start piling up. That was such a good book.
>> Brian: Yeah, but so that influenced this story?
>> Jennifer: Yeah, because I felt like if she can do that with eighteen Thomas's and Henry's and all that stuff, I can do it with she. Initially my workshop, or really my critique partners, they said this is very confusing. Make it work.
>> Brian: Yeah.
>> Jennifer: It solidified to the point where I took it to Ten House last week, last year and they said No, This works. You just have to kind of not do tongue-in-cheek because I capitalized she throughout. And she said don't do that. She's like it's distracting.
>> Brian: Interesting. Like we know, we get it.
>> Jennifer: Well, it's also a lazy device, right? Because it makes you not work is hard because it's like see it's the capital She. No, you actually have to work for this. So if you mean so, it has to be her mother or her sister or she or if they're two women in a scene you someone's name. Or if you're going to use a pronoun, make sure the pronoun is attributed to the right person and that it's not confusing for the reader. So that's just an added level of detail where you're kind of stripping someone of their name. And so it's interesting.
>> Brian: Yeah, one of my one of my favorite devices, when people are doing something and you know what's going to happen by the way the scene is unfolding.
>> Jennifer: Is that a good thing?
>> Brian: I really like it. I wish I could articulate better why. Because it can be done poorly, of course.
>> Jennifer: When it's understood, but it's not overtly obvious.
>> Brian: Yeah, it's like you're making the reader know on a level that, like, barely crosses the threshold of, like, the subconscious. So you like, I know there's going to be an abusive situation here, but like something like a violent situation, you know, because she's about, you know, it's a woman coming in who's very upset, like rightfully so. And like just by the way, like masculinity in the room, I don't know. It's like I got like, I got it somehow you know, anything you did, you did a good job of making me get it without but, like, I still don't know yet. So then the tensions there's like I'm racing towards this point, you know what I mean?
>> Jennifer: Yeah, that's also a good craft discussion, too, because when I was in Boston, and I was talking about a revision, and I was asking, Are you writing to something or writing through something?
>> Brian: That's an interesting question.
>> Jennifer: It is right because Amy's Bender was saying what are we waiting for at that starting point? What are we waiting for? Are you as the writer coming in like I'm going to write about a car accident? Let's get to the car accident or does the car accident happen and then it's about all the repercussions of the car accident. Do we need to be led into the car accident? And why is it what is the reasoning for what you're leading to or what you're writing through?
>> Brian: Or some people do the thing where it's like, Oh, you know, the murder happens. Like it's already and they want to go towards that point. I think that's really that that's another one of those things where it's like it could really work. It could really not.
>> Jennifer: Yeah, because we have epic novels that you're like, Okay, something's gonna happen on page six hundred, but I gotta wait through five hundred and eighty five pages of a lot of stuff.
>> Brian: In which case, it better not be about that because, like, it better be about something else or else what am I doing here? Unless it's like you know, your airport thriller.
>> Jennifer: Yeah, so that's why it's a just a questions like Are you writing to something or through something?
>> Brian: But where did that take place in New York?
>> Jennifer: Uniondale, Long Island. Or really Hampstead. Uniondale is a part of Hampstead where I grew up for a few years. It's loosely based on my parents. And I emphasize the loosely because I don't know that that happened, that moment happened. But there was an abusive relationship. They both opened up to me about that in my teens.
>> Brian: Both of them did?
>> Jennifer: Yeah, very different ways.
>> Brian: That is interesting. I can imagine a thing. I can imagine there being two stories.
>> Jennifer: Well, my father just said it was my fault. The reason your mother and I aren't together is my fault. He didn't say why. He just said it was my fault. And my mother was the one who told me why. While we're going shopping, we're going to the supermarket and just tells me... my mother does this all the time. She just, like, blurts out some random stuff like, I have menopause. And you're like what? We're watching Game of Thrones (laughter). I don't know how this came up out of nowhere, but Okay. (laughter)
>> Brian: Wow.
>> Jennifer: She has stories.
>> Katie: We appreciate you coming on and talking to us.
>> Jennifer: Thank you for having me. Thank you all and Rosie. (laughter)
>> Katie: Yeah.
>> Jennifer: She's been chill.
>> Katie: Yeah, she's been waiting for her chicken.
>> Brian: Yeah, she needs dinner.
>> Jennifer: She needs Wait. We're getting a business plan. (laughter)
>> Katie: We said it already, but go check out Minorities and Publishing and by Everyday People and see Jen's awesome website.
>> Jennifer: And submit to me on Electric Literature nonfiction.
>> Katie: Yeah
>> Brian: And I told you guys that we were going to call you Jen by the end of the episode.
>> Jennifer: Yeah, well, it really doesn't matter, but I appreciate the people are so concerned. Like when they send it with J and one N and then they're like, two N's, two N's. And it sounds the same (laughter).
>> Brian: Okay, that's it for today's episode. If you like what you heard, please subscribe and review on whichever platform you're listening. Get in touch with us on Twitter at @AnimalRiotPress or Facebook and Instagram at Animal Riot Press or through our website animalriotpress.com. This has been the seventeenth episode of the Animal Riot Podcast with you host Brian Birnbaum and featuring Jenn Baker and our producers Katie Rainey.
>> Katie: Both of me.
>> Brian: Without whom we would merely be three of Shakespeare's thousand monkeys banging on a typewriter.
>> Jennifer: We have evolved.