Episode 15: Voices on Addiction

April 25th, 2019
Hosted by Brian Birnbaum
Guests: Britt Canty
Produced by Katie Rainey

The Animal Riot podcast is turning fifteen episodes old. To celebrate, we've invited Britt Canty, co-founder of the Brooklyn-based reading series HIP Lit, board member for Epiphany Lit Mag, and a fine writer of prose. Today we talk all of these things and more, ending with a reading from 'One More Conversation,' an essay recently published in The Rumpus's Voices on Addictions column -- a stunning piece about how Britt navigated the relationship with her father and his alcoholism. 

>> Brian: Welcome to the 15th episode of the Animal Riot Podcast brought to you by Animal Riot, a literary press for books that matter. I'm your host, Brian Birnbaum. We're here today with Britt Canty writer of poetry and prose and co founder of Hip Lit. Britt's work has been published widely, and most recently she placed a piece with the Rumpus' Voices on Addiction Column, which I read upon publication and then heard again a few days later at a Animal Riot reading. And it's just really an incredible piece and we'll get an excerpt or maybe the whole thing on that, you know, later in this episode. I guess we'll play it by ear and will decide when the time comes. And today's brand of fuckery is brought to you by drinking wine and not feeling guilty about it despite our forthcoming discussion on alcoholism. Paradoxes. Writing. Good. Okay, let's start with... you do a reading series too. So we're cut from the same cloth. Let's talk about that.

>> Britt: Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me.

>> Brian: That's nice.

>> Britt: Yes, I'm really happy...

>> Brian: Is that the first person that's thanked us right off the bat? No. Okay, I'm getting a shit look from our producers already. I usually make it at least like ten minutes before that happens (laughter).

>> Britt: Yeah, it's great to be here. So yes, I co founded a literary event series called Hip Lit with two of my colleagues and former classmates from the New School, which is where we met. We met in the MFA creative writing program there, and we were attending a lot of readings together, and we just started to come up with ideas for how we might run our own, and kind of wanted to do something that would be a little bit different. Have a little bit more of a lively atmosphere, kind of have a party following it.

>> Brian: That's exactly how Katie kind of describes what we're going for, not just for Animal Riot, but we're thinking about a launch party for Animal Riot, the press. We were just like Should we have people read? Like, yeah, a little bit. But let's just have a party.

>> Britt: Right. The readings are obviously the heart of it and are so important. But what we found is that so often people would just kind of disband after the readings. And there was all of these missed connections or missed opportunities for people to actually connect and have a conversation which could, you know, lead to various relationships, but also collaborations. And so we really wanted to try to create something that fostered that kind of community in connection beyond, you know, surrounding the readings. But, you know, really think about how we could make sure that people found a way to connect either before the reading or after. And so we often have themes that we used to tie the events together and to make them a little bit, maybe more accessible.

>> Brian: What was your favorite one?

>> Britt: That's a tough question, and we and we've been running for seven years now. This month actually marks our seven year anniversary.

>> Brian: Oh, wow.

>> Britt: So it's crazy.

>> Brian: That's amazing.

>> Britt: Yeah. So it's difficult to say, but we did have one of my favorite events was probably our circus themed event, which took place at a venue in East Williamsburg called the Paper Box and we've featured Tea Obreht, Ayaat Akhtar and Jason Porter were our three readers and then we also had an aerialist Sienna Sharp reading poetry by Hafez as as she was... She had the poems, actually in scrolls, in her hair, and she would perform her, you know, acrobatics on as, like, mid air she would pull a scroll out of her hair and read from it, you know, upside down or whatever. And so she, you know, was one of our acts in addition to the the readings. And then we also had, you know, a band that followed that played music. So it kind of turned into a dance party. And then we have these literary side shows a as well, so we had different booths set up that featured various like literary magazines, but they would have something going on, like a game or whatever. Oh, there was a fake tattoo booth.

>> Brian: Oh my God, this sounds like my bar mitzvah straight up (laughter). This is incredible.

>> Britt: So way used to have those kind of blow out themed events on a quarterly basis, and it started to feel like we're planning a wedding every time because there's just so many moving parts so much that went into it. And as gratifying as it was, it was just... It was very, very time consuming. So we kind of ended up having to scale back a bit.

>> Brian: So was it four times a year?

>> Britt: Yeah. Sometimes we would collaborate or maybe you know, one other events in between or do like a smaller kind of salon style event in between. But, you know, our main focus was on those four extravaganzas a year. And then we like to have our events and sort of like unlikely venues for a couple of years. We're having our events that The Electric Studios, which is a photo video production studio and Bushwick.

>> Brian: I was going to ask if this was a moving event. Because we DTUT for Animal Riot.

>> Britt: Yeah, I think that's one of the things that makes Hip Lit really unique is that we don't really, you know, we might have a home base for a couple of years, but then we're sort of everywhere. We we just had our most recent event on Friday at the Coffeehouse Club in Manhattan. And then we are planning for our third year in a row to have a summer series at Nowadays, which is kind of on the Bushwick Ridgewood border. And they just have this big, sprawling outdoor space. That's kind of the perfect summer time oasis. So the idea behind that is that we have backyard readings, and so it's just very chill. But you're just kind of enjoying summer time and chilling out listening to readings. So that will be happening again this summer.

>> Brian: Yeah, that is awesome. We kinda have like an inside joke between us three, where you've invited us to a couple events like, you know, especially these salons. And we're like, Oh, my God, we're so excited and then we can't go. But one of these days, one of these days.

>> Britt: There will be more.

>> Brian: Yeah, that's awesome. I actually did not know that you guys were moving. Honestly, the theme thing too. I'm learning so much now.

>> Britt: Yes. So the theme on Friday was the Ides of March and so, yeah, we always kind of try to incorporate... and its multi media or multi genre. Books and readings are at the heart. Then we also try to feature, you know, a musicians... One time we had this really big art installation. We always do a Brooklyn Book Festival book and event. And so this was for one of those events. And this was one of one of the events that happened at the Electric Studios, which was this cool thing about that spaces since it was for production. It was kind of this blank canvas and they had a psych and everything is all white walls, so almost like being in a gallery kind of warehouse space. And so it was really great in that it was so versatile. And so we had this really cool art installation that it worked with light and glass and it was just really... it created this very memorable atmosphere that we just want of otherwise had. And so, you know, the readers are up there kind of surrounded by this installation, So it just mean it made it really much more interesting.

>> Brian: That's incredible. Yeah, you guys are turning the reading series or like the salon, Whatever you wanna call it, into its own art form. Almost every reading I go to, it's just introduce, read, next person, let's get hammered and, you know, talk about shit. But and it's a great time. And Animal Riot is particularly good at it. So it's fine. But yeah, I really like what you guys are doing. That sounds awesome.

>> Britt: Thank you. Likewise.

>> Brian: So, yeah, And we had the pleasure of attending an event at the church. Which I don't know if that was a special event or if that was a standard Hip Lit thing going on, but basically, yeah, you can talk about more where it was and everything, but I felt as a nice young Jewish boy being in a church for like, maybe the second time in my life, it was quite a blasphemous... a joyously blasphemous experience (laughter).

>> Britt: Yeah. That was our third year in a row doing... we love to partner. We love to collaborate with other series and other artists. And so that was a collaboration with Nancy Hightower, who runs a series out of St Peter's Episcopal Church, called St Peter's Presents. And then it was also a collaboration with Paige McGreevey, who runs Lee Blue Literary Salon. And as she would correct me, lay blah (laughter) and is a speakeasy style salon or kind of it's a secret. It's always takes place in a private home or residents, and you don't know the location until, you know, a few days before and this is right.

>> Brian: This is what we've been trying to get in on. But we keep missing it.

>> Britt: So Paige of Lee Blue and I have done a holiday salon for the past three years now and then this year we also partnered with Nancy so that we could we could use that space. And, yeah, I was really excited about that when we had Garrod Conley, who wrote Boy Erased and that so that was especially impactful to have him reading in a church setting. And the acoustics of a church are really great for reading and musical performance.

>> Brian: Yeah. And the band was really cool. They were kind of like a like an Explosions in the Sky kind of deal - I don't know if you have ever heard of them. But yeah, they had that ethereal thing going on.

>> Britt: Yeah, very ethereal. And just kind of creating these soundscapes. That's Matt Word and Lauren Gregory. They are an awesome duo, and I knew that their music would just sound especially beautiful and haunting in church setting. And we also had Shobha Rao of "Girls burn Brighter" and Andre Serpa, a poet whose book just came out from Alice James called "Bicycle and Ransacked City". And it was just a really great range of memoir fiction and poetry, which we also try to have, you know, a range like that.

>> Brian: Cool. Very cool. So we met at the Reading Series of New York party?

>> Britt: Yes, we did.

>> Brian: Was Andrews one of the hosts?

>> Britt: Yes.

>> Brian: Yes. Andrew hosts Liar's Leak. Yeah, and so basically, we kind of started getting together for the Reading for Rices? Am I saying it? Right, guys? Anyway, the refugee fundraiser. Let's just act like it's right. So basically, long story short, we, uh I say we like I did any work. Our producers did a shit ton of work and got a lot of reading series involved and basically, yeah, but passing around the basket to help raise money for refugees and was a really great cause. So then we kind of had, like, I guess it was like a wrap up party or something, and we all kind of met up at Andrews, and that's where we met you and a lot of other cool people. But I remember we spent a long time talking that night and we knew he had a kindred spirit, but yes, so now you're a part of the Reading Series of New York things, which is great. And like I think we all really should work together. We have joked so far and really like these, like salons like the exclusive salons and stuff like that, or semi whatever... I don't know how you want to call it. And they are exciting because I like speakeasies and furtiveness and illicit behavior (laughter)

>> Britt: Keep going.

>> Brian: I do think it's really cool that everyone's working together, especially because he just gets more people involved. And, like I do think as cool is like, you know, like a little secret thing is like the exclusivity game is kind of a little bit on its way out.  I think for the most part, I don't know, like, I'm kind of generalizing, But I do think like some of the work that you're doing... we won't get into it too much but you're going to be a part of a startup that's even kind of set on opening doors between publishers and writers and, like getting people to set up events more easily.

>> Britt: Right, right, Yeah, and also just to say that I think that creating the reading series group...

>> Brian: Reading series of New York

>> Britt: Ys, thank you.

>> Brian: You remember what you're part of.

>> Britt: It was such a great idea because, you know, we've all over the years connected with the with each other, the various organizer's of these different reading series going on throughout the city and there, there, you know it's a small world. There are quite a few of us and and it's, you know, it's a labor of love and it's something we all feel passionately about. It is a lot of work and, you know, it can be difficult to sustain. And it's nice to have that support system and have everyone come together and be able to reach out in a way that's easy and effective. To just be like, Hey, you know, I'm curious about your experience with you know, this. Does anyone have an author they'd like to recommend? Or, you know, just that kind of support is really invaluable because it can feel I think it can feel a little bit isolating because you are doing it on your own.

>> Britt: And it's not like you're a part of a company that has those kinds of resources is so everything is a hustle, and so the more you can kind of bring everyone together in that way, I think it's really just such an all ships rise situation, and I just really, really appreciate that, and I'm sure everyone in the group appreciates that too. So and then it was just very inspiring to see what coming together in that way could do. The kind of impact it could have when you pulled the group fundraiser together among all of the series in the fall and Hip Lit did a Brooklyn Book Festival event then which supported the Rices cause.

>> Brian: Oh, I like that pronunciation thing.

>> Britt: It was just really inspiring to see what we could do when we all be ended together like that and for something for a good cause.

>> Brian: And maybe I am a little too naive and a little bit on the outside, and this isn't the full story, but to me it seems like the collaboration between the hosts is really genuine. It's like there really isn't a competition thing going on, like everyone wants everyone to succeed and that's important because without everyone succeeding, then we have a lesser community, you know. So the whole point is to really help us all out, you know, and to get more writers and more readers involved. And one kind of poignant moment was I think the Reading Series of New York get together the Rices wrap up party, I remember Andrew, this was before he had done his fundraising portion for his. He was about to host, and he was like, Oh, my God, Like Animal Riot raised so much money like I'm gonna raise, like, five dollars or something, you know? And he ended up raising a lot of money, right?

>> Britt: Yeah. Three hundred bucks.

>> Brian: Yeah, and I mean, you know, that doesn't sound like terribly much. But honestly, that's a big deal. And, you know, every dollar counts and everyone and, you know, it's one of those things where clearly Andrew was like, a little insecure about, like, what great work that Katie had done. But like, you know, it genuinely is the synergistic situation where it's like everyone's trying to help each other out. It doesn't matter how much you're doing.

>> Britt: Yeah, definitely. And I know that I was really excited to go to that wrap up party because I felt like we had all really worked together, but we hadn't really met each other yet. I hadn't met a lot of these people in person yet even though I'd heard of their series or, you know, it always meant to go to that series or that one. And so to actually put faces to names or put faces to series and, you know, hang out in person like that and just exchange ideas in person about, you know, our experiences with running these series kind of like the challenges, and also the rewards of it was really meaningful and fun. And I was very excited to meet you both and, you know, had been corresponding with Katie and seeing what an amazing job she was doing with organizing this effort. So it was really cool to finally meet you both and then to now feel like I'm connected to Animal Riot and we can support each other and also through the the Reading Series of New York group. And so, yeah, I just couldn't feel more grateful for all of them, huh?

>> Brian: Yeah, and I like what you said about the faces and names thing because it sounds really cliche but it's not, especially in the writing world. Because something else happens when you actually meet someone you know, it's like, really, I can't tell you how many times I've met someone in person and been like, How do I know you? It's like Oh, no shit the Internet on, That's it. The writing community has an ability to be very strong online, but like that's why I know that's another reason why these reading series are so important is because they actually get people in a room together buying each other's books, you know, whatever. Like just talking. It's like, I mean, I just can't tell you how many people I've heard, read aloud, and then I was like, Oh,shit that was really good, like I would have never been exposed to you. But even reading that excerpt by myself like you know, might have not resonated with me like that.

>> Britt: Yeah, there's something really special about, you know, that in person experience, and I think that face to face kind of exchange and just like... I lost my train of thoughts... I just feel like in a world where you are inundated with everything's online, you know, whether it's just emailing or social media or whatever, that it's just that much more important and memorable when you meet someone face to face and that kind of exchange verses just online, online, online. And it can just be really refreshing but also more meaningful and long lasting to kind of have that experience. And I think that's really a huge impetus behind, like what we're all doing here in creating these communities that are really, you know, in real life community.

>> Brian: For people in other cities... do it. Yeah, that's what we're trying to work on. But yes, so that's enough optimism. I'm feeling not myself.

>> Britt: We can get dark.

>> Brian: So I had mentioned your piece that got published in the Rumpus, which I've been obsessed with ever since. And yeah, I don't know, we'll read it in a little bit. I just wanted to talk about it, and I guess, given little introduction about, like where it came from. You were talking a little bit before we got on the air about how you had written so many different things and tried all these different projects that it seemed like all of these kind of, not failed attempts but, like maybe false starts. I don't think there's any sort of, like, real failure in writing and this is like a great example, because at some point you said you just sat down and all this came out. Can you give some background about what it's about and stuff.

>> Britt: Sure. It's a personal essay and called One More Conversation. And it's about my relationship with my father, who struggled with alcoholism and mental illness and ultimately died from it. And he passed away a little over six years ago, and I've been... I mean, a lot of my writing has been driven by experiences I've had growing up with this, but also ever since he he passed I have been trying to, you know, grapple with what all of it meant and distill it on the page and, you know, have it mean something. So it's obviously a lot to process. And sometimes, as I was mentioning earlier, you know, it just takes time. You know, I can just take time and having it brew for a while and you know, So I was taking. I've been taking stops at this essay for a long time and just would hit a wall, not really know how to... mainly not really know how to finish it, you know, and or what I was trying to say, like, ultimately try to say, And so finally, it just kind of clicked and sort of an ah ha moment where I sat down over the summer and it just sort of poured out of me almost completely whole. And that's a rare moment for a writer, as you know, but I think that that was the product of having thought about it for so long and attempted to write this thing for so long. And I finally just threw enough thinking, attempting life experiences, I was able to, have it come out.

>> Brian: Yeah, there's a weird paradox thereabout getting distance from it. And yet, and in this other way, processing it to a place where you can get closer to it without it getting distorted, I guess. Or getting like, shocked by it like you know what? Like electrocuted. Yeah, and another thing... you're kind of the origin story for this piece. It's funny because I had a very similar a ha with a personal essay that I wrote about going to psycho analysis and, you know, being a child of deaf adults and stuff. And I wonder if there's something about, like, personal narratives. It's like, You are so close to it that, like you just finally like maybe break down this wall and it's like, all right, I got it. But I also remember it was because I had also had had an argument with my friend, who was calling me a shitty writer, and I was like fuck this.

>> Britt: Well you're like, Well, you're a shitty friend (laughter).

>> Brian: Yeah, and so basically, Yeah, like that night, I think I was, like, kind of stoned too. I was like, fuck this, I'm writing this. I don't know, but yeah, what should we do? Should we do like an earlier reading and then talk about it? I think that's an interesting idea. Yeah, I mean that. Well, that would allow us to talk about it more, you know, more freely.

>> Britt: Okay, so I'm gonna I'm going to read from the essay. This is online at the Rumpus. And it's also worth looking at online because Dolan Morgan, who's a brilliant writer and illustrator, created some really beautiful original artwork for this piece.

>> Brian: Yes, he's great. Katie actually just asked him for a blurb for my novel. I really liked his book, which was, like, actually speaking of books that are, like, short story slash nonfiction. That's one of them. That's hilarious, anyway, but Dolan's great. Everyone should check him out. He has a story about it. He has a story about a woman getting fucked by a giant or something. Yeah, that's like what it's about. We can cut it if I'm wrong, but, like, Yeah, it's incredibly. He read it out loud. I was like, This is like, the greatest.

>> Britt: Yeah, he's an excellent reader.

>> Brian: Yeah. Anyway, that's enough. That's enough on that. This is your story.

>> Britt: So "One More Conversation". (https://therumpus.net/2019/02/voices-on-addiction-one-more-conversation/)

>> Britt: Thank you for listening.

>> Brian: Awesome (clapping). That's the second time I've heard it. And I've already read it once too.

>> Britt: So, Well, thank you so much for being so supportive.

>> Brian: (Barking) Our princess is barking. Something I totally forgot to mention, so I'm glad you read, that is... Ah, I don't know if you saw, but I don't know if I invited you to my stupid Facebook writers page.

>> Britt: I think I'm on it. Yeah.

>> Brian: Okay, so I posted your piece on there.

>> Britt: Oh, thank you so much.

>> Brian: Yeah, and someone, I'll just leave them unnamed, they responded and said, I really relate to the Paul, anti Paul. Not because they've struggled with addiction, but because they had a serious brain injury of some sort. I haven't heard about it much, and they said that, like, you know, the doctor said that they probably wouldn't recover blah, blah, blah, but, like, you know, going back and forth, coincidentally, they also have a start up. I think it's a nonprofit, but basically it's like how to easily more easily get on Narcan, that like blocks opioids.

>> Britt: Yeah, it's really cool.

>> Brian: I put that up there and it just like, really spoke to them. It seems like more than a coincidence to me, just kind of like that mindset and how it works. So our challenge was to drink wine and not feel guilty. And something we were talking about before we got on the air was, there's this fear that, like you can feel like Oh, I'm I'm also like my parents so I might become like them and like, you know, that fear is kind of nagging. Do you share that at all? Or how do you view it?

>> Britt: Absolutely. I think that when you have had a parent who struggles with addiction, it's, you know, it's so difficult to, I don't know, not be scared that you won't sort of become like them, and in some ways and in some bad ways, and that's something that I definitely struggled with with my father of, you know, we did have all of these similarities, very similar interests and sort of similar personalities. And people would remark on that, and I couldn't even take, you know, I used to even take, like, a compliment, you know, something positive they would say about my dad that, you know, I might have a similar trait that would feel threatening to me because I didn't want to be like him at all on even in the even, in the positive ways, because I was so fearful of becoming like him and even something that was a good thing about him felt threatening to me. And I wanted to dissociate myself from him completely because of that fear. So I think that's very powerful thing to have to grapple with, you know? Yeah, just took me a long time to kind of come around to accepting him in all ways and accepting the fact that I am like him in a lot of ways. But fortunately, I at least so far have avoided the more the more challenging things that he had to deal with.

>> Brian: How did you learn to accept those things? Was it like in your essay. I would deduce that it was from talking to him more. And when you got older and just understanding...

>> Britt: Yeah, becoming older. You know, as a child, everything seems very black and white, you know? And as you get older...

>> Brian: It's like you can choose not to do this and you're fucking my life up.

>> Britt: Exactly. Why do you keep doing this thing that keeps ruining our lives, and it's really difficult to understand as a kid and then it's difficult to let go of the anger even as you become an adult to let go of the anger and resentment surrounding all of that and just feeling like you didn't have the kind of father parent that you wanted to have and how much that affected or traumatized, you can just obviously have really lasting effects. And so I guess I ultimately was able to find compassion for him, and that allowed me to let go of the anger I'd carried for so long and resentment toward him. And I just sort of let go. I was able to finally let go of a lot of that. And that allowed me to then also accept him kind of as my as my father and not and in a way when I think at least for me, you know, kind of having this loathing toward one of my parents it is reflected back at you. So those things about you, it's what you hate about yourself. So I was self hating because at least in part because I hated him. And so therefore I hated myself...

>> Brian: By nature of coming from him?

>> Britt: Right. And so that was kind of there, even if it was unacknowledged. And so I think when I was able to accept him, I was also able to accept myself and love myself more. And so that was an important step for me in my journey with all of this and then, being able to then say I accept him, I accept myself, but also I am not going to learn from everything that I've experienced with him. And you know I'm going to be aware of... you're kind of on high alert and high awareness. I think when you have gone through things like that and you are so sensitive to maybe not wanting to go down that route that you know.

>> Brian: I'm definitely sure you are.

>> Britt: And to some extent that's good. You know, you have that awareness. You want to have that awareness.

>> Brian: Yeah it is because especially considering that there is a predisposition. Like, I think the only thing you can combat, the only way you can combat that is through awareness on that which kind of leads me to my big question is like when you first decided to have a drink. Like what was going through your mind, like to this day? What's going through your mind? Because you've gotten this far and like, you feel pretty good about yourself, you know? I mean, have you built a level of, like, trust in yourself? Is there like, a good base? I guess, like start when you first did drink.

>> Britt: Yeah. I mean, for the most part I didn't drink in high school, but I think that there was there was a party I was where I had, you know, like Mike's hard lemonade or something like that. And I was just felt so sort of guilty about it and scared of it, you know? But so I didn't really actually drink until college, I would say. And I don't know, I just had associated myself so much with my father at that point that I was like, not acknowledging that fear that was there, That fear was there, but I just kind of I wasn't thinking about it. I was like, I'm not him. He's not related to me, you know? And so I just had compartmentalized it so much that point that it was under the surface. But I was not acknowledging the fear that I had about that.

>> Brian: So did, at some point?

>> Britt: So, yeah, so in college I did drink like a normal college student.

>> Brian: Which can be a lot (laughter). That can blur the lines.

>> Britt: Then I think once I graduated from college and I kind of became were having an adult, I started to confront... that's also when I started to do more writing because that's when I moved to New York and went to the New School. And so I was writing more. That kind of forces you into reflecting on things in your life on a deeper level. And so I think at that point I started to kind of look more inward, look more deeply at what I had experienced. And you know, all of this stuff that I had maybe been pushing aside, not wanting to look at, not wanting to face started to come to the surface and...

>> Brian: Do you think it was a choice, or do you think it a little bit of both or...? I guess I should add some context in that question, because what's what piques my interest about... That is just today I was working on an interview like, you know, some questions that I was asked and like one of the questions was what what do your characters teach you that like like test you for our like whatever and like the first thing that came to me was like self honesty and awareness. Because when I first started writing, it was like... I'm very aware now that when I first started writing, a lot of it was to flex my intellectual bullshit. A lot of the writers I like write with some of that effect. But being vulnerable is just extremely hard especially when you're young. So, like, you know, going back to you, saying, Oh, I needed to process this. And then at one moment, it just, like, came out, you know? Did you see it as a perfect, like time in your life? Can you even navigate like exactly what it was that allowed you to start saying, Oh, wow, I'm actually, like, scared as shit about this. Like, you know, this is like a big fear of mine.

>> Britt: So actually, at my thesis advisor and grad school is just brilliant. Author Joyce Johnson, who is a writer of the Beat Generation, and she was reading my work at that time, and I remember that she said to me, You know, Britt, you can't... because that's when I really started to delve into writing about my father and my relationship with him. And I remember her saying, You're just painting him as a monster. And that's not good writing. Like you need to have more nuance, but that's how I felt at the time. At the time I was still so angry, and I did think of him is this monster.

>> Brian: And it was true to you.

>> Britt: Right. Yeah, that was my what I was feeling at the time that she kind of was basically saying to me like... Obviously, it's great to write down things, to always be kind of like writing things down. But in terms of and you actually trying to publish something at that point in time, she just felt like I had not processed that relationship and those experiences enough to be able to write about it in a way that is nuanced. That has a kind of nuance that you that you want from personal writing like that and I was too one sided, you know, I was kind of I was too upset. I was still angry.

>> Brian: It's almost extremists like, you know, it's kind of a microcosm of... I just hate this person, right?

>> Britt: I think her point was just like when that's coming from this sort of hateful place, you know, it's just it's, you know, it's just not going to have the kind of nuance as like, Okay, you went through that and then, you know, not that you necessarily have to come to this, like, perfect place of compassion, but just kind of like...

>> Brian: Objectivity at least?

>> Britt: Yeah, a little bit. Or just not just this pure like anger, you know? So I think that I didn't really understand at the time what she meant, because I couldn't understand that at the time. And then it was interesting because she also hired me to be her research assistant for this biography of Jack Kerouac that she wrote called The Voices All so we would spend all this time going through the Kerouac archives at the Berg on the New York Public Library. Kerouac was this really prolific writer, and they're all of these, just, you know, notebooks and drops of mini scripts in the archives and going through those was so interesting, and I really going into it didn't know that much about Kerouac. And then I was suddenly like, in his head, you know, reading his journals that are very personal. And I started to get kind of attached to this person and started to feel invested in him and his life, even though, you know, obviously he's not alive. But like at the time, I felt like I was really invested in what was going on, What's going to happen and how is he dealing with this?

And then I remember, you know, probably a year into this research project, Joyce asked me to go see this this documentary about Kerouac and I hadn't seen Kerouac kind of come to life on the screen before, you know, with just his physical, you know, self and speaking and that sort of thing. So I suddenly went from just reading like being in his mind in the journals, reading his journals to seeing him on the screen. And it was just like, really powerful thing because I had felt so kind of invested in this person, and it wasn't meant to be like a sad documentary, but I just started like I was sobbing the whole time, and it was just extremely powerful. And I remember getting into the cab with Joyce afterward and I said, I don't know why I was crying so much like I was just just struck me in such a way, and I'm, you know, reeling from it. I don't know why I reacted that way, and she said something like, because he reminds you of your father like she knew what was going on, you know, before I kind of did because she's an old wise, an amazing woman and writer. But she saw from my own writing from you know, what I was experiencing with reading these archives that like, because a lot of what he wrote about had to do with, like, alcohol and addiction and, you know, and there were all of these parallels and even just kind of his personality had a lot of similarities to my father.

>> Brian: It was like the reverse of your father. In a way, it's like you're getting right inside his mind with all this stuff, and then you see him and it's like, Yeah, my dad has a body, too. And then, like inside that body, is this whole world.

>> Britt: Exactly. It really humanized him and I was like, Oh, my gosh, I had developed, like an understanding and compassion for Kerouac. And then I was able to transfer that compassion, understanding on to my father. And it was it was crazy how that worked. I was actually able to take that and just, like then transfer or projected over onto my dad. And then that's when I sort of had a revelation for me and it in a pivotal point in my relationship with my dad. That was the point at which I was able to start asking him those questions and actually having real conversations with him and that changed everything.

>> Brian: Wow, wow. And you said when you were doing this project, was this still undergrad? I'm sorry. I forgot.

>> Britt: This was grad school. This is when I was doing my MFA at the New School. And I mean, it is just sort of like also kind of a testament to the power of language and the words because I was able to read this intimate experience of Hiss that had to do with these same things that, like my father was struggling with and that I was struggling with as well, in terms of just dealing with having a father like that, it changed my entire perspective on him and then was unable to transform our relationship. And that is a really, really pretty powerful thing to kind of, like, say, about what language can do writing.

>> Brian: That's what I was going to say. I'm always looking for ways to promote the craft. This is a pretty direct question, but, you know, I have addiction in my family too, but it's a lot of... I don't see it very much for a lot of reasons that I won't go into. I mean, I'LL give one example like my grandma on my mom's side died before I was born and, you know, for various reasons I just haven't seen it. But, like, what was the hardest thing? I almost hate the question I just asked. But I also really want to ask you because it's so big. It's like, really global.

>> Britt: I think the hardest thing to deal with is just, you know, it's that I think, as a kid, it's the instability that the chaos, that kind of not knowing what's going to happen, not feeling secure, not feeling like the people who are supposed to be... your father who's supposed to be this kind of rock and like create this sort of foundation for you. Someone who you feel like you can always rely on and trust that actually you can't trust them and they continually can continue to betray you, break promises, over and over and over again. I mean, he would always he was very effusive and all of his feelings so, you know, it would be like I love you so much. I'm going to do everything I can to get better and make this better. But then, inevitably, you know, things would go awry again. Catastrophe would ensue, and then he would be incredibly apologetic, you know, crying, hugging you. I'm so sorry, you know. And that kind of rollercoaster of just emotion and not knowing what is going to happen and not feeling like you can really trust with this person. What your own father is telling you, and as a kid, when that person is like creating your life. I guess you could run away. But you know?

>> Brian: One of the things I was thinking was creating your world view. I'm just curious as to how much you extrapolating that. Especially when you're a kid. You're very impressionable. Like, how much do you just extrapolate that to everything.

>> Britt: Right. And, you know, it obviously creates trust issues. It can be difficult to trust people when you've gone through something like that. And so, you know, I think that was probably the hardest thing. And then, you know, and just also and then moving into adulthood, there were times when I wasn't speaking to him. But then when I did open up more to him and I set those kind of boundaries that I mentioned in the piece, you know, that was hard because it was just... how involved do I get? You know, And when I know that he's struggling or something like that, how much do I check and how much do I that sort of thing? Once you become an adult, you know, then you're sort of dealing with that. And, you know, he would call me in the middle of the night and tell me that he was about to slit his wrists, you know? And that was just kind of why in the piece I'm like, Oh, here are, like, more messages from dad, you know, talking, threatening all kinds of things. And you start to become a little bit numb to it or a little bit okay. I can't really take that seriously, or you know. But then when it actually happens, then you know, of course, you're like Oh, my gosh, I should have done something and you feel all kinds of guilt, But it so it's, you know, trying to navigate. How much do you get involved? How much you help, how much you stand back, like what those boundaries are trying to figure them out and accept them. And it's never going to feel, you know, it's never going to be ideal as long as that person is struggling with those things. So it's hard.

>> Brian: Yeah, that's a lot. Before we got on the air, we were talking about how you had tried your hand at a few long form projects and, like nothing had really stuck yet. And kind of how that brought you to this essay. Do you feel like ambivalent about writing something about... whether it's fiction / nonfiction... What have you about this experience or addiction or alcoholism in general? Or do you feel confident that you know you don't want to or do you know?

>> Britt: So I think... I don't know. When I was younger, maybe in high school or college, I read the Glass Castle and the Liars Club and those were two memoirs that really... I had at the time I never read anything like them.

>> Brian: Are they addiction memoirs?

>> Britt: Yeah.

>> Brian: I'm very surprised I haven't read those because I went through a phase where I was like, obsessed with those when I was a kid too.

>> Britt: Yeah, I highly recommend both of them, but they kind of are just, I don't know. Well, one of them, definitely the Glass Castle involves with mental illness and I think addiction. And Liar's Club is also there is addiction, but it's just kind of overall kind of dysfunctional home life and the struggles with that and those both really affected me even, maybe, kind of, I think inspired me to want to write more about my experiences and to even like... I remember at the time, thinking I'm gonna write a memoir like this and then realizing how challenging that would actually be. But I think that's that has stayed with me. And for a long time I did think I would write a full length memoir. So that's something I still think about that. Then I started to get into writing fiction and have had a couple of short stories out. They're pretty autobiographical so it's still, I think I stick in the realm of non fiction for the most part. But everything I write I feel like it is so far has been pretty driven by these experiences from childhood. Maybe someday I will have other material to explore, but yeah, my writing tends to obsess over that in different ways. Whatever form it takes, whether it's poetry or short fiction or essay so. I don't know. I'm just kind of open to seeing where it all takes me.

>> Brian: Yeah, I mean my very personal, uninformed opinion being outside of your head... it does sound like you might even need to write about that. I don't know. It's a very important experience, I think, to share with the world. I think too many people go through it. And not only that, a lot of people experience it themselves, like, you know, whether they're the addict or the, you know, the satellite member. I think you I think you'd write something really, really good.

>> Britt: Thank you, Brian. I really appreciate all of this support and having this essay out there at last, after so many years of trying to write has been such a relief, but also so gratifying in, you know, just the number of responses I've received, where it's really resonated with people in a number of different ways. And that has been really encouraging for me as a writer and inspiring because, you know, it does make me feel like Okay, maybe I should write more of this, you know, if it is because I think ultimately at least what I strive for as a writer is to inspire or just like have people connect with the writing in a way where they don't feel alone in something or they feel like someone understands something and that it's also illuminating in some way where that reader can hopefully feel like, Oh, this opens up something kind of like what I was mentioning about just the power of language. And story and sharing personal stories like that is that it can really helped to shape, hopefully in a positive way, how people might then view their own lives or experiences and kind of create that shift in your perspective that you wouldn't have otherwise had.

>> Brian: Yeah, that's why I think it's really important. A lot of people that we've talked to, whether on here or not, have talked about Oh, well, you know, my experience is very well represented. We had we had someone on here earlier who's a really great writer, and she just started writing... It's Annie, you know? People are going to continue going through this, you know, and that's why it's really important to keep sharing it, because it's not something we've figured out yet. That's for damn sure.

>> Britt: Yeah, you know it never, You know, death and love and life, and, you know, it's not getting old because we're all continuing to experience all of these things over and over again. And so it's just like it's the human condition and it doesn't... It's what we're all dealing with.

>> Brian: and everyone and everyone's perspective, like, really does shed light. As soon as I read your essay, I didn't even know about the Rumpus' Voices on Addictions column. And so as soon as I read yours as I go, I read another one. I read another. These are good.

>> Britt: Well, just to reiterate the Voices on Addiction column, the editor of that is Kelly Thompson. And, yeah, she does a really great job of curating pieces for that. So if you are interested in reading more pieces about that around addiction, it’s the place to go.

>> Brian: I was thinking about trying to write one.

>> Britt: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me on.

>> Brian: Yeah, this was great. We will. We will close now. And I think we are ready for that. Everyone is ready. Everyone is prepared.

Okay, That's it. for today's episode. If you like what you heard, please subscribe and review on whichever platform you're listening. You can get in touch with us on Twitter @Animal RiotPress or Facebook and Instagram at Animal Riot Press or through our website animalriotpress.com. This has been the fifteenth episode of the Animal Riot Podcast with me, your host Brian Birnbaum and featuring Brit Canty whose work you can find on Twitter at Britt Canty, which is @BrittCanty. Or on Instagram at Britt_Canty and please check out Hip Lit, which you can read more about on their Facebook page and you can also find their newsletter there. Please sign up for that, too.

We are produced by Katie Rainey, without whom we would be merely two of Shakespeare's thousand monkeys banging on a typewriter.